[Featured Discussion] Support Role Suggestion

First Riot Post
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vortical42

Senior Member

11-02-2012

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I'd really like to get some feedback from a red. What about a consumable item that permanently gives you higher passive gold generation at the cost of reducing damage output? Since it's consumable, carries can't simply buy it and then sell it later after they rack up a bunch of gold. Not only would it benefit the supports we have now, it could also allow 'pure tank' characters like Rammus to actually play that role instead of being shoehorned into jungle or solo top.


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ArmySquirrel

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Hate to say it, but Morello has a point. Changing the balance of gold may not make the current supports more viable, but could in fact make them less viable. The meta at its most basic level gives gold to champions that scale well off items. The support options are supports because they don't scale well with items but are strong at level 1 and often remain useful even without any farm. By giving them even a 40% farm there is the possibility that we'd see support choices evolve. Maybe not Annie necessarily, but something similar as the window where a support is good has been significantly shortened.

If you would indulge, imagine the game has now exceeded 60 minutes (because you're playing against CLG.EU), at or near this point in the current game you are probably talking max builds all around. Now imagine if you got there with another ranged AD carry instead of a support. Or another AP carry? Or another bruiser? Does that not sound more ideal than a support?

The trouble is 60 minutes is a long time, right now it's unviable because you'll probably lose well before you can achieve that potential. With this roughly 40% feed, that 60 minute game potential comes in at 36 minutes. Still late game, but 36 minutes is a much more reasonable amount of time to work with.

So the argument then goes that basically if current support champions don't scale well enough to late game, then their scaling should be buffed. This has another effect which I don't think has been fully considered: suddenly a bunch of support-only picks are now viable in other lanes. Sona mid, Janna mid, Leona top, Taric jungle, and so on and so on. I mean if they were already strong at level 1 and now they scale better into the late game, why not?

A lot of this though feels like we're just trying to balance it according to the meta, like this is how things should be and if something is unstoppable in lane with standard meta, it's bound to get nerfed. This is something I've been a bit scared of for some time, where balance is made specifically for the meta, and I would argue that a better way would be to instead focus more on picking the champion to suit your strategy, and your circumstances, rather than picking specifically for the lane you're going in to. Instead of considering the traditional supports as "Well, these are support champions", perhaps we could consider them as "Well, these guys are strong early game, but don't scale as well." To that I would suggest that, taking into account the 40% idea's implementation, the supports should be buffed not in their scaling, but in their early game. Make them stronger early game picks in order to fulfill a strategy, rather than a role, and let the role find them.


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vortical42

Senior Member

11-02-2012

^
Squirrel makes a great point. A lot of the problems we are seeing with supports is a result of Riot trying to balance them to fit into the meta rather than allowing the meta to evolve around them. We see this constant tug-of-war where Riot buffs a char to make them viable as a 0cs support and then someone figures out that that character is now an unstoppable mid and they get nerfed into oblivion again. If you want a perfect example look at the history of changes to Janna.

That was one of the reasons I suggested a gold generating item that reduces damage output. It would give players the ability to play a character because they have a good support kit rather than simply because they are able to 'survive' being gold starved.


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Krebstar

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasersniped View Post
if there is going to be a shift in the meta, there needs to be a team comp that two champions with 50% farm can be just as effective as an ADC with 100% farm and a support with 0% farm. Now it's easy enough to fit that first part of the equation, but supports are so strong with 0% farm that it's not going to matter
Support has never been the problematic part of bot lane in this scope. If you nerf all the supports, someone will just put a Lux/Zyra/Morg/Fiddle/etc in the 0 cs role instead. If you nerf them, it'll be Jarvan, and so on... The real reason 0 cs exists is because items scale multiplicatively and ADC makes the best use of this scaling.


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Snakeblade

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Senior Member

11-02-2012

I love to support its something i regularly call in champ select or am happy to take at the end. Supports are fun based in their mechanics not on actual ap ratios or damage so i feel other then defensive stats bonus gold wouldn't fo that far. I also only consider agressive supports as real supports, snoreoka, old sona and old taric were all off my list before. Taric and sona are good now but snoraka is still worthless imo cause you can set anything up you just wadle in the back and give resources. As an agressive support you also get a ton of gold as it is. Running gold gen quints support runes, masteries, and 2 gp10s i am usualy above several other players on either team in gold earned at the end. I usually end up with just about half the teams kills in assists and maybe 1 kill if im lucky. Assuming its even i am never lacking in gold, adding 40% i may as well just build carry instead of defense.


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FrozenBlades

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
That's an false assumption IMO. Give me a Sona support against your Annie support so I can win lane every time. There's a huge difference between 0-farm Sona and 0-farm Annie.

Annie scales better with AP. That's her champion design. Right now, AP means bigger damage spells. I really don't want my Sona support going, "BUT I CAN GET A DEATHCAP!!!!!!!" instead of a Shurelyas, max CDR, and a Chalice so she can spam her abilities. But that's, again, because of what AP scaling means right now.

Why?

You're asking for support champions to get big AP ratios. They're not getting them. How do you propose a 40% farm support become more useful? New support itemization that's interesting and abilities that scale their supportive aspects with AP? That's exactly what Morello said. We're on the same page here.

What I dislike, though, is your seeming tone with the whole thing. "Dude, just add this feature I thought of. It's flawless. Just 'buff supports.' It's easy!"

It's not easy and it's not flawless. There are even more problems with Synergy:

1. Oops I went to go ward. Guess I missed farm.
2. Wow my AD sucks and didn't last hit. I don't get items.

Here's the same "40% gold" system without those:

1. Increase global ambient gold
2. Decrease value of last hitting slightly

1+2 is the same gold for a carry and more gold for the support, without the anguish from Synergy.

As for "just buff supports" this is, again, something that you have direct quotes from Morello saying that's the goal. You literally have a quote in your post about him wanting to add AP scaling to the supportive aspects, and not just the damage. Why do you have this "action plan" when we've already dedicated to that goal?

I have two other points I want to add:

First, I see a lot of "systemic" changes suggested. Adding a new mechanic (Synergy) or adding a new functionality to a skill. Often-times this isn't the right way to do something. System changes are huge and far-reaching. They have a ton of aftershocks. Look at the above points creating strife between Support and ADCarry. "Dude, OMG you're nerfing my gold because you can't last hit, you suck." While less "romantic" number changes are almost always better. I remember seeing a bunch of suggested changes for Nunu's Absolute Zero. You know what was actually effective? Players getting better at the champion and increasing the base damage or rate at which the damage ramps up during channel. He doesn't need a spell shield, he doesn't need some kind of stun. He just needs a risky ability to be worth the risk. That's the whole design of the ability. That's the whole purpose of ambient gold. Why add complexity when it's not needed?

Second, this is for support players: Champions like Zyra who weren't initially "supports" now are supports (sometimes).
Do you feel good having a wider variety of support champions?
Do you feel like your role is so bad that anything can "become a support" even though support is still mandatory?
How do you think Fighter players feel when Vladimir takes top and the jungler is Maokai, so there are no Fighters in the game at all?
So it is true that you would rather have an annie with 600 AP than a janna but why does that have to be the only thing that determines power? How about some new items are made taht add a little... no **** that a LOT of variation to the support role so that there is an incentive to give your support some gold.

The synergy idea is good and the argument that a 40% anie is better than a 40% janna would be destroyed if some new items were added into a game, these would probably not cause a balance issue since the only point for the others on your team is to tank or deal damage so they probably wouldnt buy them.

Like lets say an item with an active skill thats acttually interesting something that allowed you to tether an enemy champion to the ground but could only be used in melee range so that you would want your alistar to do some farimin so that when it came time to teamfight you had a true way to force it other than burning flash and hoping the enemy doesnt also burn flash.


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Thunder God Olaf

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Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brethren Am View Post
i think that a cool way to fix this issue would be to add on anew feature that gives % of gold per minion kill however it only effects you based upon how much cs you have essentially the less you CS the better % you get obviously if your not last then you get 0%
think of it like this if i have 0 -20 cs in 10 minutes then i get 10% of total team gold accrued at 20 minutes it becomes 5% and at 30 it becomes 2.5% that way you dont even have to farm yet you will achieve gold based upon how well your team is performing

I honestly think this would fix alot of issues facing the game right now, so the support gets the WOW feeling when he/she does a great job and it allows them to snowball with the team if they are doing absurdly well

Think of it like "If the support is doing really well then his/her team should be winning" so then she will get rewarded for it! she wont be able to roam due to levels and whatnot

It doesnt even have to be TOTAL gold accrued maybe Total gold from minions. This coupled with new support items other then aura's But some really useful actives like for 5 seconds reduce damage your team receives by 25% this effect is global 180 second cooldown or an item that transfers health aka i swap my health with yours on a 120 second cooldown

another way to fix it is simply by making it so You only receive experience based upon last hitting which would make 0 cs support completely unviable


I dont know if you guys like my idea or not but i Tried fixing it ill try again later after i think about it more
are my idea's just bad? or...


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Grenolf

Member

11-02-2012

Considering that a support player supports a team, why not force the rest of the team to financially support the support?

Perhaps for every creep kill on the entire map, the support gets a % or fixed amount of gold. Perhaps this buff could be given to anyone who has not killed a creep for 1 minute or something. This way, a support player could pick any champ wihout it having to be a designated 'support' champ in champion select. You could even have a support in top AND bottom lane.

In combination with passive gold generation and Gp5 items (which do build in to some sweet items currently. Of course these items could be expanded to be more 'fun'), this could fix the gold starved support.


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IICrowII

Senior Member

11-02-2012

I fully support reducing the importance of last hitting minions and increasing passive gold gain. I find it frustrating that last hitting minions is generally more important than interacting with the other players in the game, and I think a small step away from this would help give players more flexibility to have fun.

I want to roam, and I want to harass. That this would help supports is just a convenient side-effect.

(And to that end, the X% bonus gold for being near an ally's CS idea seems to me like a step backward.)


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Rakaydos

Senior Member

11-02-2012

+ Passive Gold gain, -CS gold, and a Uility mastery that donates the user's CS gold to the nearest champ (or self if no allies are in range)