[Featured Discussion] Support Role Suggestion

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CupcakeTrap

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Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
Hello. I'd like to remind everyone that i am NOT a game designer.

I think an important point between the Sona vs Annie thing is that a support is strong because of their utility abilities. These abilities are not improved with AP (stuns don't get longer, speed buffs don't get speedier). The kit of a support with lots of utility is balanced around that.

Someone like Annie are strong because they can kill people. More items (and therefore more AP) helps her do that better. This is why a fed Annie will kill a fed Sona. Gold on Annie scales more than gold on Sona, because Annie's strengths get stronger with gold (and AP items) while Sona's don't get as strong, because her strength is in the utility, not the damage.
It's a Red! ^_^ (BTW, I hope Morello realizes that while I'm pushing back on his ideas, I respect his design choices -- they've worked out well so far -- and I appreciate his willingness to interact with fans. So, you know, buy him a cupcake for me.)

Everything you say is correct, and is part of my analysis.

However, if it turns out that even 40% of normal farm boosts Annie out of Sona's league, then I think we have a problem with overnerfing Supports to combat overly passive botlanes. To some extent, though, the question of whether or not Supports have been overnerfed is of purely academic interest.

The practical bottom line, IMO: implement Synergy, and if Annies dominate Sonas even in this 5th Champion position, then buff Sonas so that they can compete with half-starved Annies.

Two options for buffs:

(1) More gold-independent power. Give Sona a small dose of additional "safe" power, so that if botlane goes well Annie will be stronger, but if botlane goes poorly then Sona will be stronger.

(2) More gold-dependent power. Sona DOES currently scale with gold somewhat (durability, CDR, mp5), but not very much. No reason, though, why her stun duration or aura strength couldn't be more dependent on AP. There's no rule that says only damage can scale with gold.


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Oberic

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Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talisid View Post
You know, before the 0 CS support meta existed, nobody ever played support. Occasionally you'd see something like Taric+Sion bot lane but nobody ever played Janna or Soraka. Bot lane was always duo-bruisers or assassins and was insanely snowbally. And unless you were duo-queued with a friend, nobody wanted to play bot lane because fighting over last-hits SUCKS.

New Supports were designed for the 0 CS meta because that's the only place they can (currently) exist in a viable team-comp.
Actually there were some of us, the people who actually enjoyed playing real supports still did it.

I found Soraka as far back as open beta, when her heal was a HOT (heal over time) she was a little more fun, because with max cdr you could have someone on perma-regen mode, that felt awesome. Also, old Innervating Locket that was painfully underpowered is still my favorite item, I want THAT version of it back.

Soraka with items, starcalling everything to death, being sturdy enough to silence their mage or tank, throwing out frequent solid heals, is one of the most fun things in the game for me.
Likewise, a Janna tornado ripping into the enemy team like a long range Annie ult is awesome, or a tanked up Janna just making chaos in the enemy team.

Anyways, where was I...?
Oh yes, Supports before the 0cs meta, as few as there were (and we had to fight tooth and nail to prove we weren't useless), used to lane with tanks or bruisers.
Soraka's best lane ally is not a carry, it's a Rammus or Singed, she has crazy-good synergy with either of those two.


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NA1

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
Hello. I'd like to remind everyone that i am NOT a game designer.

I think an important point between the Sona vs Annie thing is that a support is strong because of their utility abilities. These abilities are not improved with AP (stuns don't get longer, speed buffs don't get speedier). The kit of a support with lots of utility is balanced around that.

Someone like Annie are strong because they can kill people. More items (and therefore more AP) helps her do that better. This is why a fed Annie will kill a fed Sona. Gold on Annie scales more than gold on Sona, because Annie's strengths get stronger with gold (and AP items) while Sona's don't get as strong, because her strength is in the utility, not the damage.
We understand this. This is a problem. It is a bad thing that Annie has more reason to get gold than Sona, not a good thing.

This is flawed design. It's Riot's current band-aid over their 4-gold-stream issue, strongly indicated by the nightmare that has been their attempts at balancing support. Take a look at the history of support balance. Just look at it.


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElementzPRO View Post
Wow morello is so bad at this game

An Annie with 40% farm vs a Sona with 40% farm I would choose Sona every day.

Annie with 40% farm isn't gonna be doing anything. Annie is useful when she can burst someone. 40% farm annie isn't gonna burst anything. Sona would still be able to stun everything regardless.
Annie is also still going to be able to stun everything with Tibbers. She'll also then have another stun up after she finishes her rotation, AoE if she uses her W.

Annie with 40% farm will deal less damage than Annie with 100% farm but way more damage than Sona with 40% farm. Both will still have their AoE stuns regardless of how fed they are. Furthermore, by 60 minutes you'll be way better off with Annie since she'll be at full build regardless of how the game went, and suddenly you're up an extra AP carry, who still brings an AoE stun to the party.


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Stark6000

Senior Member

11-01-2012

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Originally Posted by NA1 View Post
Band-aid solution: Allow support champs to get some farm via a Synergy system, and then adjust support champs so they scale with gold better.

Better solution: complete rework of items so champs (particularly ADCs) don't scale exponentially with items. Or at least not so radically. Then adjustment of all champs based on this new, more linear growth of power. Particularly adjustment of all supports so they scale along that same linear growth path as other champs, to some extent.


The better solution would require a complete revamp of the game's balance, so I seriously doubt Riot would be willing to do that. The band-aid solution is a far more feasible solution. It doesn't address Riot's core mistake, but at least stops 90% of my games from turning into a 'oh **** who's going to be forced to be our support?'

I like this better but a more realistic approach would be some syngergy type idea.

Possibly this "champions within the range of a creep kill get 50% of the gold value. If more than one champion benefits from this then that amount is spread evenly among all champions benefiting."


BUT YEAH, true balance would just be to make all champions benefit from gold equally.

I'd like a map with 4 lanes and 1 jungle.


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Hidden Dragon

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Senior Member

11-01-2012

I keep seeing the argument that a 5th goldstream would mean that other champions would dwarf traditional supports. How don't you see that this is a problem with traditional supports? They have terrible scaling, offer little damage and most are quite defenseless when it comes to teamfights. They often cannot carry their own weight while any comparable non-support champion can.

I don't understand Riot's obsession with non-scaling and 0cs support. It's pretty clear to me that no one likes sitting with boots and 2 gp5 items at 25 minutes in and your only build decision is "should I get Aegis, or more wards?". Supports should scale like every other character in-game. They just need to scale in what a support specializes in - healing, utility, buffs, debuffs - rather than damage.

Take heals for example - at the moment, they are nearly worthless once teamfights begin. They are useful in lane, but once mid- to late- game hits, an autoattack does more than Sona's or Soraka's healing. Shields are just as bad.

Honestly, I'm tempted to say Supports need to be redesigned like Karma and provided a 5th goldstream. They should scale - they should scale HARD. Support should not be a no-risk no-reward champion - that is the reason why most of us find them so boring. If a support fails, they should be just as useless as a top or mid that's failed. If a support is fed, they should be able to carry through their buffs, heals, shields, etc.

At the moment, everything about you screams that you have no impact - you are just there to fill in a 5th spot in a game with only 4 gold sources.


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Griftrix

Senior Animation Engineer

11-01-2012
2 of 33 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by NA1 View Post
We understand this. This is a problem. It is a bad thing that Annie has more reason to get gold than Sona, not a good thing.

This is flawed design. It's Riot's current band-aid over their 4-gold-stream issue, strongly indicated by the nightmare that has been their attempts at balancing support. Take a look at the history of support balance. Just look at it.
This "bad thing" and "problem" hasn't seemed to hurt the effectiveness of Sona as a support and a good choice for one at that.


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AlphariusRising

Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
Hello. I'd like to remind everyone that i am NOT a game designer.

I think an important point between the Sona vs Annie thing is that a support is strong because of their utility abilities. These abilities are not improved with AP (stuns don't get longer, speed buffs don't get speedier). The kit of a support with lots of utility is balanced around that.

Someone like Annie are strong because they can kill people. More items (and therefore more AP) helps her do that better. This is why a fed Annie will kill a fed Sona. Gold on Annie scales more than gold on Sona, because Annie's strengths get stronger with gold (and AP items) while Sona's don't get as strong, because her strength is in the utility, not the damage.
Sona does more damage on her Q and Ult, and Her W heals for more with more AP.

Furthermore, every champion scales with Health, Armor, and Magic Resist.
More gold would also allow supports to get more wards, faster aura items, and might even allow them to get boots before their first GP5! Wouldn't that be something; a support that gets to buy some swag nikes.


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevara View Post
At the moment, everything about you screams that you have no impact - you are just there to fill in a 5th spot in a game with only 4 gold sources.
I disagree that supports have no impact, but you're right that that's the implication with the 0CS meta and that absolutely cannot carry. If your carries aren't doing well, you're totally screwed as a support. At least a fed Vayne or Anivia might be able to turn things around, but what's a poor Lulu supposed to do?


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IS13c7fafe7804f7429d10e

Member

11-01-2012

Riot still beating around the bush.

Still desperately clinging to broken concepts and trying to bandaid-fix everything else to make it work.

Quote:
Nerf ADC damage and you turn the game into League of Tanks. Without ADCs, cracking major defenses becomes either outright impossible or at least inefficient for squishy champs. A 6-item Darius can destroy a 6-item Annie any day of the week if left alone, but a 6-item Vayne will practically three-shot him. That's why not everyone plays tanks and bruisers: because eventually, their low damage-to-tankiness ratio doesn't work in their favor anymore.
These tanky champions are adjusted to survive in a world with carries.

Without carries, kiting would become less powerful and thus every single bruiser and some tanks would have to get radically toned down because they no longer need to be "lolwut" OP just to be able to do their job. They wouldn't need remotely as much mobility nor free stats. And champions without mobility wouldn't need to have as much free damage either.

Bruisers are as strong as they are because they need to be if carries exist.