[Featured Discussion] Support Role Suggestion

First Riot Post
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TiltedAxis

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Senior Member

11-01-2012

Don't forget morello is like a 1300 player and doesn't really know what hes talking about.


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Talisid

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11-01-2012

If you read the rest of his posts in the thread you'd already have the answer to this.

Morello WANTS to make supports scale better by adding AP ratios to things like buffs and spell durations, so that a 500 AP sona would be comparable in power to a 500 AP Annie by providing bigger and longer MR/Armor buffs and better debuffs, basically making supports who's UTILITY scales with AP, rather then just turning them into a damage dealing/healing AP carry.

The primary problem here being that just boosting up Sona's AP ratios watters down the difference between a support and an AP carry by just giving her more damage instead of enhancing her support aspects.

However, they don't have the coding in the game to make this possible yet. With the current resources they have available, the pre-season of S3 is going to be a huge crunch time for them. Instead, they are going to add a handful of small fixes for supports to give them a helping hand until they can address this properly.


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SasakitheCouncil

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CupcakeTrap View Post
An Annie with 40% normal farm is not an Annie who has won her bet. She has been pushed out of lane, denied farm, and otherwise beaten back from snowball territory. If you're saying that such an Annie should always be able to contribute more than a Sona, I think you've just admitted that you've overnerfed traditional Supports.

At 100% normal farm, yes, Annie should beat Sona. That Annie has won her bet and should reap the reward.

At 0% normal farm, yes, Sona should beat Annie. Annie has completely lost her bet. If Annie beat Sona at 0% farm, then Annie was never taking a risk to begin with.
This, IMO is correct.


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CupcakeTrap

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11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talisid View Post
If you read the rest of his posts in the thread you'd already have the answer to this.

Morello WANTS to make supports scale better by adding AP ratios to things like buffs and spell durations, so that a 500 AP sona would be comparable in power to a 500 AP Annie by providing bigger and longer MR/Armor buffs and better debuffs, basically making supports who's UTILITY scales with AP, rather then just turning them into a damage dealing/healing AP carry.

However, they don't have the coding in the game to make this possible yet. With the current resources they have available, the pre-season of S3 is going to be a huge crunch time for them. Instead, they are going to add a handful of small fixes for supports to give them a helping hand until they can address this properly.
In my mind, the critical question remains: what will be the size of the Support goldstream as a percentage of normal farm?

Are we talking 40%, or 60%, or 5%, or 20%?

I'm not arguing that Supports NEED to scale harder on gold, though that would be one kind of buff. It'd be fine if they just implemented a bunch of neat Support items (which they say they're doing) and then provide a means for Supports to afford them.


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xBombeRx

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11-01-2012

y would you make a new topic to comment on a post in another one?


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

11-01-2012

The problem is what these champions have the potential to do with 40% farm. Annie has more potential with 40% farm than Sona. Both have the same amount of utility regardless of their gold, but a Sona that leaves laning with 10 kills is going to end the game with 10 kills, whereas an Annie can leave laning with 0 and end with 15, because that's the kind of champion she is.


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NA1

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Morello's inability to understand that people wanting to BUILD THEIR CHAMPIONS should take precedence over Riot's obsession with 0 CS is infuriating.

I am honestly growing disgusted with this. If an 11k gold Annie is simply more useful to the team than an 11k gold Sona, in every way shape and form, then that's a FLAW to be FIXED.

What the **** is so hard to understand about this?


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NA1 View Post
What the **** is so hard to understand about this?
Nothing.

How would you go about fixing it so Sona is as useful as Annie with both 0CS farm and midlane farm + some kills?


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Housemate

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Inb4 people start up fotm support Annie.


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CupcakeTrap

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11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juggernuggets View Post
You show an inherent misunderstanding of the mechanics of the game. Sona bottom is better than annie bottom in the current meta due to the fact that they are expected not to cs and sona offers more utility (poke, heal, aoe stun ult). Of course with even 40% farm annie will be able to buy more effective items and start taking advantage of the ratios on her abilities. When gold is scarce utilty heavy champs dominate the field (you see this in the current jungle with amumu , maokai, and nuatilus) while a more abundant gold stream favors champs that can take advantage of high scaling. The reason supports have been nerfed even though thy utilize gold less efficiently (as compared to high scaling champions) is that they provide so much utility even in the current 0 cs meta.

TLDR: OP believes supports have been overnerfed because they would under-perform in an entirely different meta while it is their ability to perform so well under the 0 cs conditions in this meta that has led to their nerfs in the first place.
Riot's expressed a desire to do something about the "starvation support" situation. The most obvious solution is to provide a 5th goldstream for the 5th champion, e.g. via Synergy.

Morello has agreed that they should increase Support gold income (currently at 0% farm), but not up to 40% farm. His rationale was that at even 40% farm, traditional Supports would vanish.

This is an argument that has been discussed for months in the Synergy thread. ( http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1898419 )

In short: I agree that Annies should dominate Sonas at 100% farm.

The way I see it, traditional Supports are gold-independent: their power level never spikes as high as a fed snowbally Champ's power level, but even if totally shut out of gold sources they have a decent "floor". You could quantify that by comparison to the power level of an Annie at a given level of farm. So maybe 100% farm Annie totally dominates Sona, but 0% Sona is on par with, say, 30% Annie or 50% Annie. It's a trade-off.

If Annies will also dominate at even 40% farm, then implementing Synergy should be accompanied by buffs for traditional Supports, whether in base stats or in additional scaling potential.

Further, if Annies would dominate at even 40% farm, then this also seems to be evidence that Supports have indeed been overnerfed.