All those threads talking about role-queuing.

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xrisingforce

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01-20-2013

i don't think that's true at all. i think queue times stand to be increased marginally, and it's definitely offset by selective queues' facilitating of bringing like-minded people together and being able to play whatever team comp you believe in.

selective queues aren't by their nature inflexible, so i'm not sure why you think it would impose any meta. lanes would be called as well as roles, so selective queues would accommodate dual mid or dual top lanes, or five-man jungle teams. selective queues wouldn't concretize the meta either, metas would have the same propensity to be recognized as optimal or fall out of favor that they do now; by seeing firsthand what top teams show to be viable.

your last argument that the ability to opt for a selective queue would fracture the pool of players into two queues poses a blatantly false dichotomy. it may very well be the case that selective queues become the de facto standard and the current queue system falls out of favor. at level 30, for the educated player who knows what he wants from both himself and his teammates, selective queues seem to be the surefire way to go.

so these are all non-issues. cheers!

edit: think of all the time saved on average that stands to be gained by having roles and lanes decided before champ select even starts. how many times have you initiated or experienced a queue dodge because of two inflexible people intent on being the ap carry? and in all probability, how many times do those sub-optimal team comps with two players who revile each other right from the get-go lead to losses and surrenders? a flexible system accommodates inflexible people, and the reality is that there are too many of them. a selective queue system would almost single-handedly preclude these scenarios.


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Shamble

Member

01-21-2013

adding another one:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3026851


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrisingforce View Post
i don't think that's true at all.
You're welcome to think this, however it doesn't make your thinking true.

It increases the queue times. Period.

Quote:
simple magnet-matchmaking algorithms do the rest.
No matter how "simple" anything is that you want to add to the match-making algorithm, you're making the match-making algorithm more complex then "Are these players the same Elo?" which is all match-making looks at currently.

Right now, match-making takes player A, at Elo X, and he queues up. Match-making finds player B in queue. Match-making compares player B's Elo to player A's Elo, and see if the gap is small enough given the amount of time player A has been in queue (as time increases, the allowable gap increases). If the gap is small enough, these players are now together, and match-making looks for the other 8 players.

If the gap, however is too large, match-making, from player A's perspective, will ignore player B, and won't look back to player B until a significant amount of time has passed and player A is still trying to find players of his level.


By adding this "simple" new criteria, you're not making it easier for match-making to pair people up. You're making it more difficult. You're giving a new criteria for match-making to use to ignore player B from player A's queue.

You're eliminating people that match-making can match-up from player A, and so some queues could go fast if a lot of people matching the criteria happen to queue up at the same time, but this is always a rare exception. What ends up happening is player A has to spend more time in queue.

And more time in queue isn't necessarily entirely a problem if it does result in more pleasantly matched games, but that's not how match-making works. As time passes, the criteria is loosened. You end up playing with people who don't exactly match your "simple" magnet-matchmaking algorithms, as well as people that are farther from your Elo (whether ranked or normal's hidden Elo) then the system would otherwise allow... because the match-making system doesn't want you in queue for 2 hours to find that perfect match.


Quote:
your last argument that the ability to opt for a selective queue would fracture the pool of players into two queues poses a blatantly false dichotomy.
It's not a blatantly false dichotomy. Are you suggesting that you believe 100% of players will choose the optional selective queue? (Or 100% will choose to use the already existing system?)

Because this MUST be the case that ALL 100% of players are in one queue or the other. If even just 1% of players are in a separate queue from the other 99%, match-making for the 1% is going to be extraordinarily long, and while it at 1% it won't be that noticeably different for the 99%, it does minorly extend their queue times.

What happens if it's 10% and 90%? Or really, any number that's not 0/100.

If a vast majority choose on option, their queue times are still longer than if EVERYONE picked that option. And the queue times for the minority are extraordinarily short.

You can't make an optional queue, because you split the queue pool for match-making to use, which extends match-making times and makes match-making less accurate than it could be.


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KlunkTheSpaceCat

Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GunflameSmurf View Post
What happens if I want to play Pantheon+Zyrar bot? Or leona+Pantheon? Or Fiddle+Zyra?
You and your friend queue for the two bot lane roles.

Quote:
What happens if I want to queue duo top?
You and your friend queue Top and Support, then do the same thing you do now: try and convince your teammates in 2 minutes during bans and champ select that it's a good idea and hope that whoever is going bot is cool with being solo.

Quote:
What happens if I want to play Caitlyn mid?
You queue for mid, then you play Cait mid.


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KlunkTheSpaceCat

Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mageinta Warrior View Post
People don't dodge because it's a bad game. People dodge because they don't view the upcoming game as worth playing. And that's a call they can make. However, don't complain to Riot because you and four other people couldn't agree to a plan in 3 minutes.

I really don't see how the current system makes it hard to practice roles. I've done the role I've wanted in every ranked game and every draft game. But maybe my communication skills are better than yours.
You possess truly amazing powers of persuasion. If you do not currently work for a state-level diplomatic entity of some sort, I strongly encourage you to consider a career change.

I don't have numbers to back this up, but I believe that a majority of the conflict among teammates in LoL comes from two people on a team who both want the same role. When it happens, it makes the game un-fun for all 5 players on the team. When someone (one of the two players who want the role, or one of the other three players on the team) sees that the game is going to be un-fun, they dodge. That's my understanding of how things go in the current system.

If you believe that this is not an issue in the game, I can't really argue with you. Also please let me duo queue with you? =D?


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Voyles

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrisingforce View Post
i don't think that's true at all. i think queue times stand to be increased marginally
What's the Big O of marginally?


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KlunkTheSpaceCat View Post
If you believe that this is not an issue in the game, I can't really argue with you. Also please let me duo queue with you? =D?
I don't believe that role-dispute is a complete non-issue, but there are two (and a half) things that YOU can do on a personal level to make it more of a non-issue.

1) Be flexible yourself--if you are capable of and happy to fill any and all roles (or at least the less desirable roles, support being the primary one of these), you've immediately decreased your team's chances of having a dispute, because you're never part of the problem.

Even if you can play 4 roles, and even if one of those roles is support, there's still the potential for problem. If you can say, play any role but mid... and you've got another teammate that can play top or jungle, and you've got teammates that called ADC, support, and jungle, then now it's a dispute between your two most flexible players on who plays top and who plays mid (when neither of you is very comfortable mid). If you could just mid, the dispute settles itself.

If you're ready, willing, and able to play any possible role, and even be flexible enough to try new strategies, you drastically reduce the odds of a dispute happening on your team.





2) Be a mediator. You kind of have to read and apply point one before this point is super effective, but... step up when there's a dispute. Don't just let TrollyPolly and CptMiddlesticks argue and bicker over who is going mid. Step in, ask either if there's any other role they'd like to have. Offer to give up your role. I do this sometimes. I'd rather play a second-choice role myself than deal with someone who is going to troll because he didn't get his choice. And if neither is going to budge, have a standard way of determining who to side with in order to put some collective pressure on the other one.

Whether you believe in pick order or call order, it's easier to find a completely unbiased way of determining every way who the role should default to. Figure that out, and tell the other player "Hey TrollyPolly, CptMiddlesticks is first pick. You need to pick another role." This may even encourage your other teammates to help you convince TrollyPolly to figure something else out. It may also encourage other teammates to offer a role swap with TrollyPolly.

Regardless, stepping in as an unbiased 3rd party between two teammates fighting over a role can go a long way to solving the dispute.



and 3 (the half point I referred to before), be prepared to dodge. This should pretty well be a last resort kind of thing, but dodging and taking a 30 minute break is better than dealing with trolls. If two players both want to play mid and can't figure out any sort of agreement, just dodge.

And don't look at the 30 minutes as a penalty for you. Learn to think of it as an opportunity to do something else.

Here are some ideas on what you can do with those 30 minutes...

- Catch up on chores around the house, laundry, dishes, whatever.
- Catch up on some homework or studying (as the semester goes on, this will be more important than it is right now in January)
- Browse the forums... turn yourself into me with posts every where...
- Do some research on a champion. I prefer LoLWiki to just get the direct info rather than any guide site
- Check out the Featured Streamers sectin. You can learn a lot watching these high level streamers.
- Play an ARAM or two game (the 30 minute ban doesn't prevent you from doing customs)
- Create your own custom game to practice a jungle route


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xrisingforce

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01-21-2013

haha, well regardless of how the pool of players is split, the way you posed it is a false dichotomy, because at the very least it didn't account for selective queues eventually phasing out the current system, and any number of other possibilities! you presented option a and implicitly not a, which is a false dichotomy by definition. anyway, this point is pretty tangential to selective queues vs. current queues.

you keep pushing this idea of "increased queue times" as the end-all be-all factor that single-handedly decides matchmaking success, when i can easily argue that a matchmaking system that would facilitate the bringing together of like-minded people is at the least equally desirable (you seemed to somewhat acknowledge this). because the members of a team at a minimum would have a consistently higher probability of working together cohesively than teams determined solely by similar, relatively unmeaningfully calculated numbers (in themselves), by virtue of the fact that their expectations of each other and themselves are implicitly mutually agreed upon, matchmaking would be playing an integral part in minimizing the damagingly random aspect of the current system's "queue up and hope for the best" mentality.

i'm glad that we can agree that simply advocating a claim doesn't make it true, because when the notion of "how" long queue times stand to be increased is inherently vague and simply unquantified, i can't take it as a serious objection to the positive effects a selective queue would have on the overall lol experience!

so, we seem to be presented with selective queues having the possibility of effecting the experience at two extremes, and they are a) that the introduction of selective queues drastically increases queue times and summoners still benefit from having roles and lanes called before champ select, and b) that the introduction of selective queues increases queue times by a negligible amount and is eclipsed by the value of being able to carry expectations of yourselves and your teammates into champ select. there is also c) that selective queues become the standard lol queue at level 30, and with respect to a) and b), lol becomes immensely better for it!

edit: the de facto race to call roles right now is just silly. or blind pick giving the first pick the built-in ability to disregard his teammates' calls. how are those as ways to determine roles not insanely counter-intuitive?


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Panda Liu

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Senior Member

01-21-2013

Hey guys, sorry to barge in here, but of you could look at my thread I will greatly appreciate it
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?p=33760462


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwaggieBear View Post
Hey guys, sorry to barge in here, but of you could look at my thread I will greatly appreciate it
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?p=33760462
No. Your thread is completely unrelated. Don't spam this thread just because it's a popular. active topic with tons of posts in some odd hope of trying to get a job at Riot. If you want a job at Riot, send them your Resume.