All those threads talking about role-queuing.

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KnightxSScarlett

Senior Member

01-17-2013

People don't dodge because it's a bad game. People dodge because they don't view the upcoming game as worth playing. And that's a call they can make. However, don't complain to Riot because you and four other people couldn't agree to a plan in 3 minutes.

I really don't see how the current system makes it hard to practice roles. I've done the role I've wanted in every ranked game and every draft game. But maybe my communication skills are better than yours.


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OriginalJack

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KlunkTheSpaceCat View Post
You're talking about requiring players to select at least two roles when queuing in RBQ? That would be interesting. Maybe have this requirement for Ranked, but not for Normal?
Yes, this was what I was talking about. Like you would need to select Top/ADC or whatever combo you want.

Really if you are trying to practice one specific role you could always just grab 4 friends and just say "hey guys I am trying to practice mid (or whatever) tonight" most of the time your should be able to get the role you ask for. Making friends in game isn't really hard if you aren't a d-bag. I bet even Pogo will friend you if you ask nicely and promise not to talk about RBQ when you play.
:-)


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalJack View Post
I bet even Pogo will friend you if you ask nicely and promise not to talk about RBQ when you play.
:-)
Yes. In fact, queuing with a premade is my number one suggested tip for essentially every complaint people have that leads to wanting a role-based queue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KlunkTheSpaceCat View Post
Except it doesn't work fine. New players have a very difficult time finding games where they can practice roles that they want to practice. People constantly dodge games in champ select. Exiting the game client has become a part of the game, and Riot has even taken different steps to balance it, it's such a popular mechanic. LoL is a great game, and I love it; but it has its flaws.
In my personal experience, "I didn't get the role I wanted" makes up a relatively small portion of the dodges I see when players dodge my teams. Now, a player that dodged may also be a player that didn't get the primary role he wanted, but that doesn't make that the primary reason for his dodge. It could be only a small contributing factor, or a complete non-factor.

If I request top at champion select, but by the time it gets to me, top is already taken, but one of my teammates is already harassing another, and perhaps our team comp looks something like... Kha'zix top, Katarina mid, Shaco jungle, and Sona support (all extraordinarily squishy... and I'm expected to fill ADC role) and I decide to dodge, it's not because I'm not getting to play top, and it's not because I feel forced into my least favorite role (ADC). It's because at champ select teammates are already harassing each other and our composition is bad anyway.

This scenario is just as likely with a role-based queuing system.


MOREOVER, the current meta isn't as rock-solid concrete as people like to think it is. So if you want to talk about new players, a role-based queuing system is worse for them for a lot of reasons. On top of all the other pitfalls of RBQ that have been discussed in the 25 pages so far, RBQ would make the game overwhelmingly confusing for new players.

It's not like there's a plethora of MOBA games out there and every new LoL player is already familiar with all of the LoL mechanics, he just needs to get accustomed to LoL's specifics. That's not really the case. I've introduced several new players to the game, and while I'll discuss this idea of the meta with them very slightly, I find it's significantly better to focus on the basic mechanics with new players. In addition, it's primarily best for them to pick one champion and focus that champion.

So especially with the overwhelming popularity of smurfs (who will KNOW what champions belong in what roles), RBQ can make the game very terrible for new players who don't know what the different roles mean. Besides, it's borderline impossible for a level 5 account to survive the jungle. Yet some level 5 account HAS to queue up for the jungle role... or else the game will never fill out and never start. And what champions can YOU clear the jungle with on a level 5 account? Warwick? Nunu? Maybe those two. Maybe not. Heck, I don't even know whether or not it's necessarily possible any more given that Vampiric Scepter is now 800 rather than 400. (I haven't tried s3 jungle on a lowbie account).


Consider this too, when discussing new players...

You want Riot to, in their queuing system, designate a jungle role. At a first glance, this is fine. It's pretty obvious from an item and champion design stand point that Riot recognizes this as a full-time role for a player. There are plenty of champions marked with the jungle tag, and now there are even items designed specifically for improving your ability to clear the jungle.

But think about new players. How does a new player interact with the jungle?

Okay, Tutorial 1 is on the ARAM map as Ashe--no jungle.
Then Tutorial 2 is on Summoner's Rift as your choice of Ashe, Garen, or Ryze. There's a jungle, sure. But how does the tutorial walk you through? Rather than explaining different roles, it has you do a little bit of everything. It explains CSing and last hitting, it explains objectives and global gold... and it wants you to be in a lane, but then later has you kill the wolf camp, maybe the wraith camp, one of the buff camps (I think) and then later slay the dragon.

To a new player that doesn't know any better... the jungle is there for when you get a quest pop up that tells you to go kill monsters in the jungle... and the only place where you get a quest pop up is in the Tutorials.

What's the next logical step for a legitimately new player? Co-op vs AI, beginner bots. The AI doesn't jungle. But if you pay enough attention, you'll see the AI run into and out of the jungle. Now, personally, most of us are experienced enough to know that the AI just run through the jungle to get from point A to B, they don't kill any camps. But to a new player, this can look just like what they did in Tutorial 2. Maybe the bots got a quest to go kill the wolves?

And so MAYBE a new player will do this (although most likely, they're focusing on that level 1 tower dive, because this is Call of Duty, right?). Maybe they'll wander through the jungle (or forest as they all like to call it) and kill a camp or two... and maybe they think that's jungling... but they're still not fulfilling a full-time jungler role and still won't have any idea what it is (and presumably they maybe had to pick a role even to queue for Co-op?).

The fact of the matter is, essentially all low-level games are played using the old American 2-1-2 meta. And there's not really an exact point in time where all of the sudden people start regularly jungling, because even in purely level 30 blind pick matches, you'll still see the 2-1-2 meta.

And I don't know if this was your experience or not, but for a while, like summoner level 18-29, I always hoped my team didn't have a jungler. Because for a while, the junglers just aren't experienced enough to actually end up being an advantage. You hate having a jungler on your team (against no jungler on the enemy team) for a while until you start to understand it.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Okay, I wanted to break this into a second post because it's borderline off-topic, but I feel it should be out there anyway...

I DO think that Riot should add a third tier of tutorials. The first tutorial does a decent enough job of introducing new players to the most basic concepts of the game, and the second tutorial familiarizes players with three different style champions as well as some of the features of the most popular map--Summoner's Rift.

The third tier of tutorials would actually be five different tutorials, a different champion each.
The five champions would be: Garen, Ashe, Ryze... Soraka, Warwick.

The Garen tutorial would go through the basics of playing the melee/fighter/bruiser type of champion and explain how these champions are played.

The Ashe tutorial would go through the basics of the ranged AD carry type of champion and explain the responsibilities of this champion type.

The Ryze tutorial would go through the basics of the AP carry type of champion (though honestly, Morgana, Fiddlesticks, or Annie would all be better since Ryze builds so much different then any other champion).

The Soraka tutorial would explain the idea of playing a support champion, and more importantly a 0 cs support. New players completing this tutorial, whether they want to play support or not, should be significantly more informed on the value of CS. I mean, if it's important for this type of champion to NOT hit the creeps so that the other champions can... maybe I need to pay more attention to what I'm doing with those other champions?

And the Warwick tutorial would explain the idea of playing a jungler and how this role works.





And you can add in those 5 tutorials without worrying about locking down the meta, because even if the meta changes, I can't really foresee the idea of the jungle role completely disappearing, and Riot is making item changes to help encourage the idea of a 0 cs support. Meanwhile, the other three tutorials aren't even about roles at all. Those three tutorials are about champion types, and unless Riot makes a lot of extraordinarily drastic changes to a massive chunk of champions, those three basic types of champions are always going to be around.


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mwarme

Senior Member

01-17-2013

More to the point, I don't think anyone has suggested RBQ for blind-pick style games. I think people have mostly understood that RBQ's should ONLY apply to draft pick modes and then possibly to ONLY RANKED DRAFT. It's typically assumed that anyone who is level 30 and is playing ranked and has acquired the necessary 16 champions WILL have seen a jungler and 0 cs support often enough to understand what they do, and the issues with the 30 min que and the rage have largely diminished in non-ranked games with the new systems that Riot has put in place. And blind-pick dodging is only like a 5 then 10 min penalty anyway, not a 30 min penalty, so it's a whole new class of issues.


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mwarme

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
lol.


For me, I still don't really like your idea though. I mean, for me, part of being a good League player is determining what your team needs and what type of champion you should pick to fill out your team needs.

I mean, let's assume for a second that the meta never changes. Under the current meta, let's say we have a Twisted mid, Ezreal/Sona bottom.

That's pretty standard right?

Now, in the current meta, champions like Fiora or Akali or Kha'zix are perfectly viable solotops. Meanwhile, champions like Shaco and Diana are perfectly viable junglers.

But do you see the problem with a team comp that looks like this:

Kha'zix, Twisted Fate, Ezreal, Sona, Shaco?

Way too squishy.



You can stay well within the bounds of the meta and still have a terrible team comp.


The game isn't about rock-paper-scissors, but if part of my LoL skill means that I can pick a champion that will better fill out my team's composition, I should be rewarded for that.
I've won ranked games with that exact team comp. It's not hard--this is where the "being a good lol player" comes into play. In this team comp, instead of playing the "assassinate everyone after the aoe ults" khazix, you upgrade to a more bruiser-y build. Frozen mallet and black cleaver, into a bloodthirster, into a randuins or warmog's, into i.e. or something. The TF can go standard AP carry, the Shaco has to build a tad tanky (maybe a frozen mallet or rylais depending) and your ezreal can build pretty normal. The thing to recognize with this comp is that it is STRONG in the current "league of warmog's" BECAUSE it is not a late-game comp. Sure, they lose at 30 mins. But (i played sona in this matchup) with a tf lich bane, sona sheen rush as first non-core support item, ez triforce rush, you can put your mobility on with a 5v2 the second everyone goes B for those damage spike items, and you rush down towers with all the extra damage procs from the triforces/sheens. It's very korean--get that early game damage spike and keep rotating to diff .anes.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-17-2013

I didn't say you couldn't win with that comp. Ultimately it comes down to who is the better player and which team has better teamwork, yes.

But there are better team comps, and all else being equal, the better team comp will win.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Just a mid-January stat* check on this thread.

Since October 30th, 2012 (the day this thread began)...
It has been 80 days.

44 threads have been "stamped"
That's about one thread per 43 hours.
46 upvotes on the original post
25 pages of discussion
0 thread titles have been repeated


* Note, the stats are almost absolutely incomplete. I can almost with 100% certainty guarantee threads relating to this topic have been posted that have not been added to the original post. I know I've missed some. I'm not perfect.


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xrisingforce

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Member

01-20-2013

riot can implement role queues without imposing metas simply by: giving the player the ability to opt for an advanced queue via checkbox, perhaps this is granted at level 30. once checked, the player (or players, if with a group) going to queue specifies the roles he/she (hereafter he) will be fulfilling as well as his desired lane. the player also specifies the roles of his desired teammates, as well as their lanes. since his future pugs have also specified complimentary (in the geometrical sense) information, simple magnet-matchmaking algorithms do the rest.

also pogo, thanks for the heads up!


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-20-2013

xrisingforce, that's something that has already been discussed.

"Enforcing the meta" may be the best counter point to role queuing, but it's not the only one. Another major counter point is increased queue times because of undesirable roles--support for example.

Now, the quicker queue time may make support a more desirable role choice once the system is implemented (maybe), but you'll get a lot of people playing support just to get in quicker, and will do the job terribly, where I think in the current system, there are a lot of people who would rather just opt to give up the role they primarily want just to play support because they want to win and they know how to play support (and don't trust a teammate).

But the main point here--increasing queue times is a major counter point to a role-based queue.

And why do I bring that up here in response to your point?

Because we've already discussed this sort of optional split system where I can choose whether or not I want to queue into the meta. I mean, first off, it does still impose the meta to a degree, because if the meta changes, what do you do with this role queue system based off an older meta?

But mostly... by splitting players into two different queues for the same game type, you make the pool of players in each queue drastically smaller, so the combined wait time for matches is even worse than it would be in any other system.