All those threads talking about role-queuing.

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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mageinta Warrior View Post
No one here has presented a good reason from Riot's point of view as to why this queue is necessary. NECESSARY, not wanted, NECESSARY. Do players in ranked NEED to play the meta? No. They do not. Are you trying to force people to play in a way that they do not want to play? Why should anyone in ranked be obligated to play a certain way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KlunkTheSpaceCat View Post
I would argue that players in Normal/Ranked Solo/Duo Queue actually do "need" to play the meta. Or, at least it's really difficult to play something other than the meta. In these situations you are grouped with 3 or 4 strangers and you have the chat box and the short time provided to communicate your plan of attack. It's really not the right place for experimentation. Duo jungle 1 bot, or 2 top 1 bot, or 3 mid - these sound like a ton of fun to try. But the best place to do that is with a 5 man group. Really, not having RBQ is what's making people play what they don't want to play, because a lot of players queue up hoping to play one or two specific roles, and sometimes it doesn't work out that they get to do that.
Megeinta Warrior makes a good point here, and Klunk, you don't really full answer the challenge his posts makes.

First off, I do agree that in solo/duo queue, players are typically going to be better off following whatever the current meta is. This gives everyone the best chances of winning, because everyone is relatively clear on exactly what their role is and what responsibilities their role has... or at least that's the idea... it turns out that this isn't particularly the case, especially when it comes to junglers, supports, some AP mid players, and a lot of Darius players--and especially at lower Elos.

However, the increased winning chances the meta theoretically gives is actually the reason anyone even wants a role-based queue system in the first place. If you really don't want to play support, then why not come up with some alternate strategy that doesn't include a support? Why do you insist that your TEAMMATES fill a role that YOU refuse to play? You do it because you want to win, and the current meta strategy provides your greatest chances of winning.

Myself? I recognize the meta and why it is the best strategy that anyone has come up with so far, and I like winning, so I fill whatever role will provide my team with the best winning chances.

But generally, the reason you get two players fighting over mid isn't even always because they hate all four of the other roles. Typically, it's because by the time those two have called mid, and the other three called top, ADC, and jungle, the only remaining option is typically support. And neither one of them wants to support.

So don't. Go duo-mid. If your ADC can play conservatively and get some extra help from the jungler (since the enemy jungler will have to pay extra attention to his own mid), then I don't see why it shouldn't work out.

Ultimately, the current meta is designed around making sure your ADC can farm and make it to mid and late game and then he just carries the match. If your duo-mid splits CS, while the enemy mid has to share CS with the tower, while your jungle makes sure your ADC is able to farm effectively under the tower, then there's no reason why you shouldn't have a chance at winning.



And here's the main problem with the role-based queuing system. Let's say, for whatever reason, the strategy I just described (bruiser top, duo AP mid, ADC bot, and jungle) turns out to be superior to the current meta. Let's say it starts romping it. Now what happens with this rigid role-based queuing system? Now it has to change.

This is what people like me who oppose a role-based queuing system mean when we use the phrase "enforces the meta." Whether that duo-mid strategy comes from attempted trolling in solo/duo queue that just happens to work out, or comes from premade queuing, it doesn't really matter. The point is, a problem arises when the meta changes. We'd have a queuing system that doesn't match the meta.

And yea, Riot could go in and change the roles, but at what point do they do that? Do you chance the role queue when 10% of solo/duo queue is playing this new system? 25%? 50%? 75%? 90%? 100%? I mean, when?


Or now do you want to have two different metas to queue into? Now this makes the queue time (which was already made worse by queuing by role) WAY worse. Plus, see how I described those strategies? Both have a solotop bruiser, both have a jungler. Those two roles haven't changed in the slightest. If I'm queuing as one of these roles, do I get to pick which set of teammates I get queued into? Do I have the option to queue into both?



And ultimately, it's not a question of can it be done. It CAN be done. It can be programmed. That's no question at all. It is technically possible to accomplish.

The question is whether or not it's worth it just so that some stubborn mule of a player can learn an extremely small sample size (2-4) champions to fill one role and get himself to an extraordinarily high Elo (relative to where he should be at) with no clue how to play any other role.



Moreover, queuing for multiple roles doesn't really mean when you get to champion select you have all those roles as options. It just means it will get you into a match faster by putting you with the first group that needs one of the roles you selected. No one, NO ONE will trade roles in a queuing system where you select the role you want to play before you even queue up.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KlunkTheSpaceCat View Post
And they seem pretty comfortable with the meta. New champs are described using terms "Jungle", "Support", "AD Carry". The pro players whose events are promoted within the game client adhere pretty religiously to these roles. And the meta creates a nice shorthand so that 5 random strangers can be teamed up and play the game with only a little bit of prep time during champ select.
You're a little confused here.

First off, yes, there are champions released with tags "jungle" and "support." There is not a single champion tagged "AD Carry."

There are champions tagged "carry," but they're not AD carries. They're just champions that become extremely strong toward the end of the game with a full item build. Fiora, Gangplank, Master Yi, and Tryndamere all have the carry tag, yet none of them are ranged, which is part of what the current meta calls for.

Moreover, there are tags that have nothing to do with the meta at all. I'll give "Recommended" a pass as a tag that exists to point beginning players toward a champion that will be easy to play. However, the tags "pusher," "assassin," "stealth," "tank," and "fighter" have nothing to do with the meta.

Additionally, despite the existence of the "support" tag, some extraordinarily popular supports (in the current meta) lack this tag. Alistar, Blitzcrank, Cho'gath, Leona, Nunu, Orianna, and Zyra are all more then competent supports, yet none have the Support tag from Riot. Meanwhile, Kayle, Morgana, Nidalee, Shen, Teemo, and Zilean all get the support tag. And it's not that these champions can't support, but they're far more questionable options then any of the champions I listed that lack the tag. There are even borderline support options like Jarvan IV and Fiddlesticks that can fill the support role just as good if not better than some of those with the support tag.

Let's talk about the jungle tag too.

First off, Udyr. Period. Just Udyr. Udyr is example enough that Riot's tags are miserable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot's "Tips & Items" for Udyr
Udyr is one of the best junglers in the game.
Udyr doesn't have the jungle tag.

Second, Volibear. In regards to the season 3 jungle changes, a Riot staff member mentioned that there's not really a good way to tweak Volibear to make him into a jungler without making him overpowered, yet Volibear gets the jungler tag. Why? And I'm not commenting on whether or not the players can make him a competent jungle champion. I'm commenting on Riot's opinion of Volibear as a jungler. They don't think he can, yet they give him the tag.

Here is Riot's list of champions with the jungle tag: Diana, Elise, Fiddlesticks, Hecarim, Kha'zix, Nunu, Rengar, Sejuani, Skarner, Volibear, Warwick.

You'll notice that list doesn't include this list of great jungle champions: Alistar, Cho'gath, Dr. Mundo, Evelynn, Jarvan IV, Jax, Lee Sin, Malphite, Maokai, Master Yi, Nautilus, Nocturne, Olaf, Rammus, Riven, Shyvana, Trundle, Udyr, Xin Zhao... and possibly Vi.


Long story short, even if the Riot tagging system had anything to do with the meta, it's terrible.



But the Riot tagging system DOESN'T have anything to do with the meta. It has to do with something at an even higher level. These are more generalized strategic ideas. It IS good to have a champion on your team to farm the jungle monsters. And the champions with the jungler tag are supposed to be champions that excel at doing this. And given that there are only four possible gold streams yet five champions per lane, it IS good to have a "support" champion whose abilities are good without building a lot of items and can survive without gold so the other 4 champions get more gold, and the champions with the "support" tag are champions who are supposed to meet this criteria.

The tags don't say "bottom lane, 0 cs support," "bottom lane ADC," "mid lane AP carry," "jungle," and "top lane bruiser." Not at all, not even close.


And why do the pro teams use the meta in the tournaments? Because it's the best strategy for winning. Riot doesn't encourage the teams to play this way. Riot doesn't discourage it either. Riot has no say on their play style. At some point in season 1, most of the American teams actually played a 2-1-2 meta with no jungle. The European teams were playing the 1-1-2-J meta we're used to today. The European teams wiped the floor with the American teams and so the American teams adopted the strategy the Euro teams were using--they didn't want to get their butts kicked again like that.

And it's not because Riot told the American teams to play that way. They're playing that way because they feel like it gives them the best winning chances... and if you're a professional player, winning is your ONLY goal.


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Nesious

Senior Member

01-05-2013

Ok, lets be honest, the one reason this isn't perfect already is because:
No One Will Pick Support. EVER.EVER.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-05-2013

That's not the ONE reason this idea won't work, but it's a part of the reason. Support will be picked rarely, so everyone else will have a drastically longer queue time.

In World of Warcraft, tanks are the rare pick. Before they introduced some initiatives to encourage people queuing up for the roles in short supply (the "Call to Arms") the DPS players could be in queue for 30-60 minutes. Now it's not as bad, but it's still anywhere from 10-20 minutes (and will only get worse as the game gets farther and farther from the Pandalands expansion, meaning fewer active players per day).


But here's another thing, long-term, to consider on the impact role-queuing and queue times can have.

Remember a post back how I mentioned this idea that a guy who can only play 2-3 champions in one role and has no clue about anything regarding the other four roles, and how a role-queuing system would let him attain a very high Elo playing just this one position?

Now consider this... let's say this guy gets to a super high Elo playing only mid. He's fine with his Elo, doesn't care if it gets higher or not. But he got to that Elo playing mid... would the system prevent him from queuing into that Elo as a support when to you and I, it's very clear that he wouldn't be able to play support at that level, so he's a 1200 level support player, but managed to get 1800+ Elo queuing strictly as mid. Now some 1800+ Elo match is going to be ruined because CaptainMiddlesticks didn't want to wait in line for his next match, so he queued as support to skip the line. See this problem?


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adc

Member

01-05-2013

Captain Middlesticks.

I seriously hope that name is free.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-05-2013

The character limit for usernames is 16.

CaptainMiddlesticks (space or not) is too long.

Cpt Middlesticks is available though. Or at least it used to be...


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buneter

Senior Member

01-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glacialwrath View Post
Discussion: The current meta is obviously the best way. Creativity can't possibly make a better meta, and the ideas of duo-mids, duo-jungles, and more can't possibly be good. Also, the idea of trolls like queuing as Garen mid (and you can't ban certain champions from certain positions, as some interesting ways have came up), can't possibly exist.

Nope, no flaws.
holy **** i've met some meta-sheep before but you sure are a pro at it I mean its the best right now but that's because were looking at it from what we know the meta is. Their maybe something we arn't even looking at, and need a new mind so a noob to come up with it for us. and how do you know a duo jungle wouldn't work have you tried it.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-05-2013

buneter, Glacialwrath's page 1 post is full of sarcasm...


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The 1011

Junior Member

01-05-2013

I understand the where the idea of picking roles is coming from but then you are defining how champions are played and need to be played and I almost Guarantee riot wont do that because your telling everyone how to play and that ruins creativity.

So instead of that I have been trying to undertake the idea of changing how teams are made in solo ranked queue.

First we would need to create a profile for everyone for this game type I am calling Captains.
In this profile you would have 1-2 main's with 4-5 champions and up to 3-4 secondaries or 1 secondaries of 1-2 champions and 2 preferences not to play or other combinations.
For example I like to main middle as Lux, Nidalee, and Karthus, Katarina and I like to top as nidalee and Wu Kong, and Support as Soraka, and Zilean. I am not really strong at jungling and Adc/apc bot I have to option to perfer not to.

Now bans would semi be the same other then it would be limited to the Captains and non-captains profiles.
Also another note a virtual League of legends coin will be flipped after bans for the choice of first pick or pick of what side they want.
Now after that captains get to create their team composition, from the 8 non-captains.
This will fix the problem where people fight over positions at the champion selection, however this will not stop troll teams, on the other hand I rather troll as a team and play a champ I like to play as.
Basically its like the way you choice teams in capture the flag or any backyard game.
Maybe also have a certain game requirement to be a captain.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-06-2013

Does anyone else find it amazing that there are 36 threads (so far... an average of more than one per every other day so far), and yet none of them have identical titles? Kind of interesting.

And these are only the 36 threads I've seen since October 30th. I'm sure there are plenty I've missed.