Sejuani needs a bit of TLC

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Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-31-2012

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Originally Posted by Arcticfury View Post
I was splitting the two because I don't believe she fits the role of tank. And no one doubts her initiating ability, so your quote from Guinsoo is where I took off with the two definitions.
First sorry I keep breaking this down into quotes but if I don't its hard to see on my phone. That's cool about your belief that she doesn't fit the role of a tank. Just because Riot designs a champion to do something does not mean players become creative and use them for other purposes or simply funds them better suited for a different role.

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The reasons why I don't believe she is a tank are as follows.

While yes, her damage scales with HP, poorly, she doesn't have tankiness unique to her. What I mean, is that if Ashe can slow (which you have as a peel) then she can peel better than Sej having ranged quicker auto attacks and W wide range slows.
In this case Ashe would be better than a majority of tanks. A ranged tank would be ground breaking, meta changing OP. Luckily Her health, health regen, armor and magic resistance are all dismal.

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Ashe can also build strait HP, so she can soak as well as Sej, but she'd never be able to keep up with Amumu for example, making him unique as a tank, Sej is not in this area.
Ashe has much worse stats, but as I mentioned its not exactly a number of points you can soak but how effective you soak the damage you do take. For example let's say Sejuani gets melted next to nothing and she Q's away with a sliver. You know and I know players tunnel on that and by having players chase her for a kill she is still effectively soaking damage for her team even though she isn't taking damage. Again its the brilliance of her kit she soaks better than she is given credit for. Its like a modified bait.

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Um, I don't believe the threat comment was refuted, because in order to be a good soak you have to have a reason to be targeted.
Putting damage on a priority target and soft cc on a priority target is a reason.

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Oh, and the reason you'd want AP for damage, while winds doesn't get any real damage from it, your Q, E, and R all scaled from AP. Poorly, but they don't get help from HP. You even post that you get AP to help deal a little more damage.
I read your post as AP for Northern Winds. Yes I mentioned it but not in exactly the way you took it.. I think. The damage is for the team R+E with any additional damage helps them. I don't get it because I want Sejuani to kill but to wound multiple enemies for the carry/ hyper carry to pick up kills easier. A tank doesn't need to be able to pose a 1v1 threat as a dueler... Just be a threat.

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So to wrap it up, she was designed to be a tank, she just doesn't fit the role, according to Riot's definition.
We disagree... but that's cool.


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alfavhunter

Senior Member

10-31-2012

i do nto own her but i have seen her only once since the initial 'zong new champion must play' wave, and she did horrably bad, i agree with these changes but i think northern winds should simply do extra damage to minions, not raising its base damage (look at fiddles dark crow) because then they have room to improve it beyond what you suggeted without breakign in Vs players


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King Spaghetti

Member

10-31-2012

Yeah Sejuani could use a little buff, idk about what you did to Arctic Assault though. Maybe Riot
could increase her ap ratio's and base damage on most of her abilities.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticfury View Post
There are dozens of small changes that can be done, but something needs to be done, and hopefully it doesn't change her kit or what makes her unique.
Btw, this is the main reason I am relentlessly defending the Idea of the Q collision stop removal as the only significant adjustment to her kit. (The tougher jungle may require minor adjustments to base stats, health regen and attack speed would be my hopes)

If Sejuani gets a shield or sustain of any sort it only draws her closer in line with the other tanks, the same thing with buffing her damage. Go back and look at the comparisons and the reason why everyone is asking for specific changes. Its all to make her more like the other tanks.

Those changes destroy everything that is unique about Sejuani and brings her back in line with other tanks. What does that accomplish in the end? Either she will be viewed as a still weaker Nautilus a worse CC machine than Amumu or become overpowered and banned with Amumu, Shen and Malphite.

Really if players don't like her retreat ability in Q then they have all the champs that they want her to be more like. Why must they take the unique tank and make her a clone.

Increase her mobility and ability to slow and disrupt the enemy team as intended, not survivability and damage.


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Mooseville

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
Btw, this is the main reason I am relentlessly defending the Idea of the Q collision stop removal as the only significant adjustment to her kit. (The tougher jungle may require minor adjustments to base stats, health regen and attack speed would be my hopes)
Let me ask you this: What happens if/when you see that the Q change does absolutely nothing to improve what she does?

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If Sejuani gets a shield or sustain of any sort it only draws her closer in line with the other tanks, the same thing with buffing her damage. Go back and look at the comparisons and the reason why everyone is asking for specific changes. Its all to make her more like the other tanks.

Those changes destroy everything that is unique about Sejuani and brings her back in line with other tanks. What does that accomplish in the end? Either she will be viewed as a still weaker Nautilus a worse CC machine than Amumu or become overpowered and banned with Amumu, Shen and Malphite.
So what you're saying is she shouldnt get things that are actually beneficial to her because other Champions already have great kits. Basing off of that statement, We can assume that other comparable champions are succeeding because of the impressive aspects of their respective kits. So, basing off of the previous two statements, it's also safe to assume that if Sejuani is given a beneficial aspect to her kit (like a stronger slow, or a small CC on her Q to actually justify the stop), then she would succeed as well.

Literally, all of your arguments have been "What makes Sej unique is that she doesnt do as well as other champions in her catagory because her skill kit doesnt allow her to do her job at a comparable level. BUT THATS OK BECAUSE I LIKE WHAT SHE DOES NOW!!!!"

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Really if players don't like her retreat ability in Q then they have all the champs that they want her to be more like. Why must they take the unique tank and make her a clone.
Why would you save your Q to retreat anyway? If you have even the slightest hope of fulfilling Sej's desired initiation then you would begin ganks with it. The cooldown on it is far too long to have it up again in such a short amount of time.

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Increase her mobility and ability to slow and disrupt the enemy team as intended, not survivability and damage.
So, what your saying is that you want her to have more cc......Hence a larger slow on her passive and a small knock up on her Q, since that would allow more manipulation of enemies. I know I've heard that suggestion before somewhere....oh wait, IT WAS ME!!!


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NA Rukhron

Senior Member

10-31-2012

There are a few things that i actually believe that should be changed about Sejuani:

1 - Frost (Innate): this is a pretty cool Innate, but it's also quite weak that it isn't really impactful. I believe there should be some stacking mechanic where you'd stack the slow. Your area threat would be the same, but your focused threat would be a bit more awesome. It would also help her jungling, as it's a must that you level Northern winds for clear speed, but your gank power is wrapped around Artic Assault and Permafrost, making your early game quite slow when combined with Sejuani natural low initial clearing speed. (her clear speed once she levels a bit and buy some health is fine through)

2 - Artic Assault - the thing about this spell was the range. Sejuani had the longest dash ever when she first came out. Now it's like nothing compared to her former glory but no other aspect of the spell was changed to compensate to the range loss that is indeed much more impactful that, let's say, gaining bonus Armor/Magic Resist when she hits an enemy champion.

3 - Early jungle - Sejuani 1st-to-3rd level jungling is by far the worse i've ever played and can even be extended to bad until 4th level if she tries to pick W-Q-E for a gank and fail to secure the kill. It's bad on both clear speed AND sustain.

How to solve it:

Frost: 10% + stacking +7.5% (stack twice) or +5% (stack thrice) slow to movement. She will still be limited to 10% on AoE slow, but now she can gank at level 2 and doesn't need a frozen mallet to really lock down on targets. Enemies can still take quick measures to avoid her from stacking the slow, meaning it's way more counterable than frozen mallet.

Arctic Assault: bonus armor/mr for a very limited period. Either by the start (to reduce the potential damage during travel and a bit more after) or when hit enemy champions (to further reward the agressive play so thematically fitting her kit and lore)

Early game stats: even if level18 stats remains the same, Sejuani could benefit from a better initial armor and/or health regeneration for a slightly better lvl-1-to-3 jungle that doesn't make you feel like you're trying your luck with a non-jungler on jungle. I've played Galio jungle and he has a pretty damn more safe jungle making the monsters heal him more than they do damage him while under bulwark (all the while upping the damage output of his spells - and give up blue is nothing when you just want to 1st item a 890g chalice to solve all your problems).


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
Let me ask you this: What happens if/when you see that the Q change does absolutely nothing to improve what she does?
What happens then? Then Sejuani players enjoy the mobility buff until she gets a different set of buffs.


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So what you're saying is she shouldnt get things that are actually beneficial to her because other Champions already have great kits. Basing off of that statement, We can assume that other comparable champions are succeeding because of the impressive aspects of their respective kits. So, basing off of the previous two statements, it's also safe to assume that if Sejuani is given a beneficial aspect to her kit (like a stronger slow, or a small CC on her Q to actually justify the stop), then she would succeed as well.
No, I am saying she is unique amongst tanks and making her like other tanks only leaves her in the same spot. She should get buffs in what makes her different. To give players choices in how to play. If you want sustain or damage other choices exist.

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Literally, all of your arguments have been "What makes Sej unique is that she doesnt do as well as other champions in her catagory because her skill kit doesnt allow her to do her job at a comparable level. BUT THATS OK BECAUSE I LIKE WHAT SHE DOES NOW!!!!"
You can look at it however you like. I look at it this way. What makes Sejuani unique is that you need to play the tank role differently than the other tanks to succeed. If you try and run her in like the others you will think she doesn't do as well as other champions in her category... and I do like what she does now. That's why I don't want it taken away.


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Why would you save your Q to retreat anyway? If you have even the slightest hope of fulfilling Sej's desired initiation then you would begin ganks with it. The cooldown on it is far too long to have it up again in such a short amount of time.
You initiate with Q? Now you are next to the enemy front line because you got stopped by the collision stop and most angles for R are now cut off. Now situations change and yes you may initiate with Q but why would you call Q out as the only hope to initiate? R+E is one of the best initiates in the game.


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So, what your saying is that you want her to have more cc......Hence a larger slow on her passive and a small knock up on her Q, since that would allow more manipulation of enemies. I know I've heard that suggestion before somewhere....oh wait, IT WAS ME!!!
If you go back to the last post I responded to you I laid out a dozen or so points of why I wanted the stop removed on Q.

So no. I want her to be able to apply the cc she has in a more efficient manner. Hence the stop removal on Q. It could spread frost on more targets, which in turn makes E more efficient which also increase her damage output on more targets. A knock up will Perma ban her and does not benefit chasing a champion like Olaf where removing the stop on Q could place Sejuani in front of him forcing him to path around and in all chase situations of allows W to be n range of target for a longer period of time which again increases her damage output. The stop removal also allows Sejuani an easier time placing the 2 second stun on the target of her choice which would again be a more efficient use of her cc and if you Q through the front line and R the priority targets... again its a better senerio for E, which is better slow, better damage and initiation peal on the enemy front line.

So no I don't see any of you in my response but I knew that without you yelling.


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Beija

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post





I think we all have played a lot of champs. I play lots of champs too (more on that in a sec.) For me its not the fact whether I won or lost, its you that threw out statistics... wasn't it? Its not the fact that you lost the game. First its the fact you didn't even follow your own words. The you felt the need to curse so I fought your curse with your own action. Now about other champions if you look at Ryanarmour3 well that's my sons account see the three odd games in that history? Amumu, Malphite and Rammus... yea that's me.
I don't believe you.






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As I have said many times, you are allowed your own opinion. Nothing wrong with that.
Since when using a winrate chart for factual data on champions considered an opinion? Amumu might win more than Sejuani or he already does? smh..

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Uh I'm not talking about meta or balance. I am talking about improvements to a single champ most don't understand or play... probably only ever seen once or twice. So you continue to cloud the issue and avoid my points of improvement.
Changes for champions is what make or break them within the meta. It doesn't seem you're very familiar with this but patches are considered the "holy grail" of this day and age. Either you're blessed when it comes around or you're not.

Changes in Sejuani effects everyone. That's the ripple effect of someone getting buffed or nerfed. I can teach you more if you like. Seems like you need it.





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Do it so we can see your statistics that don't lie. If you win you are half right as of that point in time... if your wrong?
You ignored that Amumu does better and hate to admit to reasons yet you want more data to ignore? Sheesh.



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Balance is not the issue, any suggestion we propose will be balanced by Riot. If they decide to use the idea.
So you're saying you're fine with Sejuani the way she is now... underplayed and unwanted. That is not good for someone who wants their champ to be known. That's counter-productive sir.


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OK not a threat add me I'll be your Sejuani.
No thank you. I'll be more than happy to play a normal with her though.

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Yea its about Sej buffs not meta or balance. That is Riots job.
You have a lot to learn dude... buffs/nerfs = meta = balance...


It seems you're confused with what you're actually protecting. We want Sejuani to be viable. You fear she will be different. Sometimes, you have to make those big changes in order to be acceptable in public view.(Evelynn).
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By the way, this is a troll:


"1a. Noun
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."

Just because I don't agree with what you believe in doesn't automatically make me one. I'm halfway educating you through this debate as it seems anyway.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beija View Post
I don't believe you.
You don't, you don't want too... that's fine. I have nothing to gain or lose by you believing me. But yea lucky I picked that one profile that just so happen to only have 3 tank games in the match history.

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Since when using a winrate chart for factual data on champions considered an opinion? Amumu might win more than Sejuani or he already does? smh..
Its not that the data is opinion. The opinion is that you will have the same win rate as shown at that snip in time.


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Changes for champions is what make or break them within the meta. It doesn't seem you're very familiar with this but patches are considered the "holy grail" of this day and age. Either you're blessed when it comes around or you're not.

Changes in Sejuani effects everyone. That's the ripple effect of someone getting buffed or nerfed. I can teach you more if you like. Seems like you need it.
It doesn't really matter what you think I need. You don't believe me anyway. But I bet Riot decides on the balance and how they think it will fit the meta etc. I bet they even have a team that tests stuff like that before release and adjusts from that point if need be. Not you, not me.


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You ignored that Amumu does better and hate to admit to reasons yet you want more data to ignore? Sheesh.
I tried to address this several times. First all the other tanks have something in common that Sejuani is lacking so playing her the same as other tanks will result in a worse performance. I believe this is supported by the mass calls for sustain. I also suggested you put your Amu does better to the test. Play 4-9 more ranked with Sej then play 5-10 games with Amu. I bet you don't hit the win rate on either. You might be higher or lower. This is not flipping a coin too many variables exist.

Which makes you able to change the very data you talk about. Yes you can influence the win rate chart by simply playing the game. You are not bound by it you actually help shape the numbers presented.



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So you're saying you're fine with Sejuani the way she is now... underplayed and unwanted. That is not good for someone who wants their champ to be known. That's counter-productive sir.
You ignore everything I say and even Arcticfury noted I call for changes. It appears you care what no person says but yourself. I didn't know I wanted her known... thanks for the heads up. Why would I want her known? So others can play her or ban her? No... Riot said she is getting an adjustment and I hope its in a direction that keeps her different than other tanks.

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No thank you. I'll be more than happy to play a normal with her though.
You don't believe me.. I dont mind. You won't let me be on your team.. I dont mind. I bet you don't take my statistical challenge to you. I'm not the one scared of data, it seems you may be though.


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You have a lot to learn dude... buffs/nerfs = meta = balance...


It seems you're confused with what you're actually protecting. We want Sejuani to be viable. You fear she will be different. Sometimes, you have to make those big changes in order to be acceptable in public view.(Evelynn).
Different is viable, or we would not have so many champions. I don't fear different, I enjoy choice. Thank for the assumption on my thoughts though.

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By the way, this is a troll:


"1a. Noun
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."

Just because I don't agree with what you believe in doesn't automatically make me one. I'm halfway educating you through this debate as it seems anyway.
When you argue why would you ever pick Sejuani over Amu and claim a losing record will follow on the message board. When behind the scene you pick Sejuani and have a winning record. You are just trying to stir up an argument. You knew at that point your own record was in conflict with your post and used it to simply argue.


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IBastardI

Senior Member

10-31-2012

i completely agree, sejuani deserves to be buffed!