Sejuani needs a bit of TLC

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Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-31-2012

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Originally Posted by Beija View Post
Thank you for pretty much confirming what I just told you without having to run to a red for validation.
The point was the order of emphasis. I thought that was clear... you skipped it again.


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Again more attempts at crawling at a Red's feet for vaildation. Even though I agree Sejuani role should be changed into Initiator because that's all she's capable of doing.
Wait didn't you just say something about running to a red. Oh, you run and I crawl. Besides isn't it Riots game? I have followed Sejuani and tanks long before this thread.

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I at more than happy about the "reported" buffs. Hopefully they hit the right areas for improvment.(QoL, increased Ratios, removal of old "Shen-Syndrome")
OK




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Ok, so you want to carry as a child I see. I gave you the courteousy and didn't even bring your personal experience into this but since you want to play that game... *opens hands welcomely* let's play.

You say I've played Sejuani and won, This is true. You say I've played Shyvana and lost. This is also true. What you seem to miss out is that I've played A LOT of champs and tried with them. Can I say that my experience with each said champ has brought me together as a better player? Of course because I've learned something new with each one. Every champion gave me a different experience on what to expect from them AND from others inside a game.

Now, let's look at you. OH many games with just Sejuani.. ONE game with Maokai, ONE game with Leona(And both are loses). Now I come to your very broad usage of champions(Not really) and ask you this; How do you know anything about balance among the roster if you only play one character? What do you know... No, What the hell do you know? You only play Sejuani; if anything, you probably do believe Amumu isn't better because you probably believe he doesn't exist right?
I think we all have played a lot of champs. I play lots of champs too (more on that in a sec.) For me its not the fact whether I won or lost, its you that threw out statistics... wasn't it? Its not the fact that you lost the game. First its the fact you didn't even follow your own words. The you felt the need to curse so I fought your curse with your own action. Now about other champions if you look at Ryanarmour3 well that's my sons account see the three odd games in that history? Amumu, Malphite and Rammus... yea that's me.

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Oh? You've played against him before? You must know a lot about him then... You must know the proper places where amumu would jump in from then, you must know what his most common jungle route is then. You must know how long it takes for him to move through jungle then. Oh, you don't? Because you only play Sejuani? Well I'll be damned.
What? You also assume to much. Back to a previous quote though. I don't know about balance that's for Riot to decide... didn't I even mention something about that in my points of improvement?


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Can I say that you only like Sejuani? Yes, Hell I can say you are only capable with Sejuani...a failed champ.. lol.
As I have said many times, you are allowed your own opinion. Nothing wrong with that.

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Such a childish remark from you and I really expected more from a person who's so defensive with their character with better remarks.

Tl;DR: Someone who only plays one character and has knowledge of one character has zero credibility when determining the meta because their opinions are mostly biased.(as seen from majority of your posts).
Uh I'm not talking about meta or balance. I am talking about improvements to a single champ most don't understand or play... probably only ever seen once or twice. So you continue to cloud the issue and avoid my points of improvement.





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Irrelevant, That's health i'm getting back just by standing still and shooting her for LS.

Killer damage? Biased is already bleeding through....
Again skip everything you want, cloud the topic and avoid an ability comprehend.


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Another childish attempt.

Herp, Just because I didn't pick Amumu yet, doesn't mean I won't pick him in the future where he will still be more viable than Segooni.
Do it so we can see your statistics that don't lie. If you win you are half right as of that point in time... if your wrong?



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Good, hopefully they listen to someone with general knowledge of the game and balance and not some fanatic.
Balance is not the issue, any suggestion we propose will be balanced by Riot. If they decide to use the idea.


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You don't "blow up" something that isn't a threat in the first place. I let Sejuani live to be the last one because she can't do anything by herself. GP5 item build will forever leave her behind and sadly, being item dependent isn't her fault.
OK not a threat add me I'll be your Sejuani.


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Comprehension*
Yea again I used your own words to tell you you don't listen to your own statistics that's not childish its sad that you would do that.

Yea its about Sej buffs not meta or balance. That is Riots job.

Btw herp derp you like my other tank games?


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Beija

Senior Member

10-31-2012

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Originally Posted by Arcticfury View Post
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Read and +1. I burst out laughing with the "coward button". Pretty clever.

This is exactly what I've been trying to tell Raviance who feels Sejuani doesn't need any drastic changes in her kit.

Sejuani needs help and a lot of it. No one gives a s*** if a tank has an escape tool. Actually, what kind of damn sense does that make anyway? A tank escaping?

"Oh my team is dead. I'm gonna go in 0/3/6 with 0CS and gp5 build and protect our turret. Go Go Dash button!"


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Beija

Senior Member

10-31-2012

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Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
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I don't even know when you're speaking or when taking a quote from me.

Fix your sh*t before posting. I know you want to rip me a new one but please.. Let me be able to read whatever it is you're cooking up there..

Preview is your friend.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beija View Post
Read and +1. I burst out laughing with the "coward button". Pretty clever.

This is exactly what I've been trying to tell Raviance who feels Sejuani doesn't need any drastic changes in her kit.

Sejuani needs help and a lot of it. No one gives a s*** if a tank has an escape tool. Actually, what kind of damn sense does that make anyway? A tank escaping?

"Oh my team is dead. I'm gonna go in 0/3/6 with 0CS and gp5 build and protect our turret. Go Go Dash button!"
Only +1? I should have at least 12 up votes by now. I hit the nail on the head with that one. They'd have to make up a new category for her called initiator/runner or simply Coward (all in yellow).

But really, we can argue about what needs fixed, and there are probably a dozen ways to fix her and not remake her, but the fact still remains she needs some buffs. She's by far my favorite play style, I just hate that I have to play so safe and run behind the crowd for so long.

ARRRGGGGHHHHH, just fix her Riot.


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Private Riem

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Sejuani's damage output comes from her W, but it takes an absolutely ridiculous amount of HP to deal decent damage with it (We're talking 4000+) And still it won't go much higher than 250 magic damage per second. With that much HP, you can be sure as hell you won't have any magic pen. Building it is stupid anyway. So your damage is probably reduced by either 1/3 or 1/2. Thats 500 damage over 5 seconds.

On a carry, not too bad, but he'll kill you before you deal half his hp in damage.

I'm REALLY afraid of her becoming the next malphite (Considered underpowered for months, buffed slightly, bugs fixed, SUDDENLY OVERPOWEREDOMGNERFPERMABANSTATUSCAN'TPLAYANYMORE)
We need to start small. Very very little buffs first, then if needed, buff some more. The biggest buff I'd get behind is my suggestion on first page.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

10-31-2012

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Originally Posted by Private Riem View Post
Sejuani's damage output comes from her W, but it takes an absolutely ridiculous amount of HP to deal decent damage with it (We're talking 4000+) And still it won't go much higher than 250 magic damage per second. With that much HP, you can be sure as hell you won't have any magic pen. Building it is stupid anyway. So your damage is probably reduced by either 1/3 or 1/2. Thats 500 damage over 5 seconds.

On a carry, not too bad, but he'll kill you before you deal half his hp in damage.

I'm REALLY afraid of her becoming the next malphite (Considered underpowered for months, buffed slightly, bugs fixed, SUDDENLY OVERPOWEREDOMGNERFPERMABANSTATUSCAN'TPLAYANYMORE)
We need to start small. Very very little buffs first, then if needed, buff some more. The biggest buff I'd get behind is my suggestion on first page.
Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to try and do the math, her Winds does "Sejuani summons an arctic storm around her for 5 seconds, dealing 12/20/28/36/44 (+0.1) (+0.01/0.0125/0.015/0.0175/0.02 [1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2% of maximum Health]) magic damage each second to nearby enemies." according to League of Legends Profile.

So if she has 100 AP and 5000 HP, not sure you can get both in a 30-40 minute game, but let's pretend. That's 44 base + 10 (.1 * 100) + 100 (.02 * 5000) per second or 154/sec. Let's say you have Sunfire too, so now you're 194 per second. In 5 seconds, with no MR on enemy or pen on your side, that's only 970 total damage. Even Teemo or EZ will have 2000 HP at this point (because I gave you all eternity to get 5000 HP and 100 AP, so they should have 2000 HP).

Let's pretend you lead off with Ult and hit the carry, that's 350 + 80, so you start off with 430 damage. You pop E and get 260 + 50 or 310. And you waste your Q because you aren't a coward (tank after all shouldn't have to run unless team is complete ****) so add another 210 + 40 or 250. So in all, you get 430 + 310 + 250 + 970 (because you are so OP you actually get all 5 seconds of winds on your target. That's 1960, so with your 3-4 swings of that infinitely slow papier mache auto attack you will be able to top 2000 hp in a 5.5 second burst of annihilation.

So, you're level 18 at this point otherwise you'd never achieve these stats or ability levels, which means they are also level 18, and let's say they are so cocky they don't add MR, they should still have around 30 base MR. So let's take that 1960 down to around 1508 actual damage. That means you only did about 3/4 of the HP bar and you now get to start winds all over if they or their team hasn't nuked you, plus you get to swing your paper weapon at them.

But realistically, they'll have closer to 100 MR, and when I play adc or ap carry, or mid, or jungle, or any other position I'll have over 2500 hp by the time you get these super fantastic stats. So that means you'll do closer to 980 actual damage, and that's assuming they don't heal, pot, get shielded, that you remain on them the whole time, you achieve god status abilities and they don't, they don't have flash or a jump ability, and your team is equal to better skill than your opponents. Oh, and your coward button is gone so you're in it to win it or die trying.

And you can say your team has skill so they'll be focusing, and they will be spread out a bit so they can't be CC'd by equal CC attempts, etc., but you also have to admit that their team has an equal chance of being skilled, so your ult hit their tank instead of adc, they are spread out, their support is in back healing and buffing so your ult didn't hit her/him, and your 970 damage is mostly wasted on their melee/tanks, who don't mind it that much since they want to get up close and personal because they want to rip your face off. You're basically relying that you are more skilled than the 'squishies' on the other team and that you're able to get off that perfect ult combo, because otherwise you're really just an initiator that disrupts their initiation, which is probably not 1 dimensional. So, yea, if you're not ganking (upper hand 2v1, 3v2 + element of surprise) then what advantage is your initiation over the enemy? You can't follow it up with anything other than weak damage and a slow, so I guess it's more of a save button to stop their initiation and hopefully pick of the slightly slow player on their team that overextended. And my previous post listed a large portion of the champs that can do that as well as Sej.

Nope, Sej = Fail.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-31-2012

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Originally Posted by Arcticfury View Post
Okay, I've read through Rav and Beija posts. Woah, so many quotes.

First, Sej needs work. That is pretty clear. Removing her stop on Q won't make her a tank, since all she can do is initiate.
She is a tank, just because she plays different doesn't make her any less a tank.

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Of this list "
Starts and initiates teamfights (usually via CC). Soaks up damage. May peel dangerous attackers off other vulnerable team mates. Presents itself as an attractive target by causing long-term “threat” as the fight continues.- Morello"

Sejuani can only do 1 well and a 2nd if fed or given enough time. So let's take these 1 at a time.

* Sejuani can initiate very well, that's really all she can do.
A lot of people like her initiate and would agree she can do it well.

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* She can soak damage if she is given enough time, but even with full defense/hp runes and masteries she can't "soak" damage until mid-late game. none of her abilities assists with this, she has to build straight HP/Armor/MR. And if that's soak then what champion can't do that? Even Teemo can build 100% defense items and "soak" as well as Sejuani.
Yea any champ can soak damage if built in such a way. I don't think its the actual number you can soak, but how effective you can soak. Like I said no champion can force you to target them for the entire duration of a team fight. So the amount you soak should be in proportion to the damage the enemy team is dealing. I have switched to AP in matches to aid in damage because I was soaking enough.

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* She can't peel if given 1 hour head start. She can't even CC them off unless ult is saved, and even then 1-2 seconds depending on who it hit. After that she can slow, well slowing in a team fight means nothing since they are running at you and you at them, if your team is in range then they are in range, slowing keeps everyone in range longer, which is pretty much the enemy's goal anyhow. She can't silence, she can't knock back (Q has a stop of sorts, but most use it as an escape or initiate), she can't pull, she can't burn down the opponent, she can't freeze a second time. Wait, Ashe can do the same things, maybe a pure defense Ashe should be played, because they'd do the same damage but Ashe has a better slow and similar ult, plus range.....
She can peel, 330-10%=297 even Ashe can pull away from that. In a team fight slow still means something. Positioning is not just running at each other joust style. Everyone shouldn't be in range to everyone if you are positioning correctly. That 70% slow allows you freedom to position and focus better.

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* Attractive target due to long-term threat. I'm not even sure I have to argue this one, but here goes. She has an initial CC and then nothing for 60 more seconds. She has a terribly slow AOE burn that is not threatening unless you build her AP, and then she goes pop if hit and is no longer a tank by any definition. Though I will say, if she isn't 100% pure defense she is an attractive target because she dies easily, if 100% pure defense/hp then not attractive because she is no threat and can't easily be killed.
AoE burn off of AP? Northern Winds scales better off of HP than AP.

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So... Sejuani is not a tank. She is not a bruiser (off-tank). She isn't a carry or assassin. She must be an initiator. But she isn't much else. She isn't good 1v1, she isn't a tank as we've already proven. So if she isn't a tank, doesn't do damage, then is she really the one champ that isn't meant to be played?
She is a tank. She isn't as straight forward as others but she is a tank.

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We need to define initiator. And it needs to include more than a toss of an ultimate and a slow. Even tanks are expected to have threat, peel and initiation. Sejuani is the one champion that only has 1 ability. 2 if you count the ability to Q out of a fight. So initiator/coward. Uhm, no, that's not good enough. Ahri, Voli, Singed, Darius, Blitz, Amumu, Ashe, Morgana, Aniva, Cass, Cho, Diana, Ali, Hec, Jarvan, Jayce, Leona, Lux, Pantheon, Poppy, Skarner, Tristana, Lee, and Veigar could all be classified as Initiators. All have abilities that stun, pull or a lunge/jump followed by some ability to slow, silence, do big damage, or otherwise tank. I may have missed a few. But all of these champions have other abilities, such as being able to tank (already established Sej is not a tank), do good damage output (Ashe, Trist, Cho, Hec to name a few), or assassinate (Ahri, Diana, even Poppy). You could argue that stuns like Lux or Morgana aren't initiates (then Sej's Ult isn't much different, or that Viegar or Jarvan who have a ring of death that can't be escaped, aren't initiates, but then neither does Sej, who 1 second stuns a crowd and then slows them.
You are seperating initiator and tank where Riot combines the two? Lets look at Cass, are you going to stop building AP on her because she can initiate? Are you going to build Cass tank? You can but you are taking more away from the champ than you are adding.

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The point is that every single champion is at least 2 dimensional in respect to their abilities, except for Sejuani. She really only has her initiation and coward button. All because she has no base defense, no defense abilities, no peel, and no damage. She feels like an almost tanky melee Ashe with no offense to supplement her initiation. Removing stop on Q does not make her a tank, it does not give her peel or the ability to be a long-term threat. It gives her position, but that's it. That's not a dimension. It gives her the ability to jump past the first line and use ult on the ADC, or the ability to run (coward button improvement).
A crowd button? I disagree as above. I think most player use positioning rather than civil war skirmish lines.

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Her CC is fine, leave her slow (not that impressive with horrible attack speed), her E (which has an impressive slow if you can apply frost from horrible attack speed, her dash or ult, but then coward button is gone), and leave her ult, arguably the best initiation in the game if only for 1 second, 2 seconds on their initiator which is probably a tank and not a focus anyhow, so 1 second in reality, if they don't have tenacity.

She is the most 1 dimensional character in the game and isn't that unique for that 1 dimension.
Removing the stop on Q does in fact help her peal better. If she can Q to that enemy regardless of what's in her way it helps her do it better. If she can get to that enemy and apply Permafrost easier she can peal better.

Removing the stop on Q does help her be a larger threat because she can W a squishy and apply Frost. W is much more effective on lower MR than trying to W a tank. Less Health and less Resistance is a greater result.

So the Q stop removal does help her do the job better, everything except sustain.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beija View Post
Read and +1. I burst out laughing with the "coward button". Pretty clever.

This is exactly what I've been trying to tell Raviance who feels Sejuani doesn't need any drastic changes in her kit.

Sejuani needs help and a lot of it. No one gives a s*** if a tank has an escape tool. Actually, what kind of damn sense does that make anyway? A tank escaping?

"Oh my team is dead. I'm gonna go in 0/3/6 with 0CS and gp5 build and protect our turret. Go Go Dash button!"
I'm not the only one... let me crawl to a Rioter again OK?

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... there isn't any need to worry about that at this point--se'ni certainly could benefit from iteration, but i don't see the need (or desire) to completely change her kit.
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in terms of final thoughts, i think a lot of my sentiments have been echoed throughout this thread--sejuani is an effective and rewarding champion when she's played by someone that knows her very well, is on a coordinated team, and isn't behind. her ability to contribute to her team in a meaningful way drops significantly when any of those areas aren't up to par, and the sejuani player can miss out on a lot of valuable learning time once things have gone sour. she could benefit from having more nuances to her kit (without adding tons of complexity) as well as feeling like she can make more of a contribution when the chips are down aside from her ult. i also feel that the 'future' sejuani's 'best case' should not be much stronger than present sejuani's 'best case' (if at all).
Other players also believe she just needs minor tweaks.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beija View Post
I don't even know when you're speaking or when taking a quote from me.

Fix your sh*t before posting. I know you want to rip me a new one but please.. Let me be able to read whatever it is you're cooking up there..

Preview is your friend.
lol way to avoid. If you could figure out what is yours and what is mine in that small section its just more fuel to the fire that you must be trolling and not even following your own words.

Beija I don't want to rip you anything. You are allowed you own opinion. I didn't curse, you did. I just disagree with what you want to do with Sejuani??? Which is what btw?


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
She is a tank, just because she plays different doesn't make her any less a tank.



A lot of people like her initiate and would agree she can do it well.

.....

You are seperating initiator and tank where Riot combines the two? Lets look at Cass, are you going to stop building AP on her because she can initiate? Are you going to build Cass tank? You can but you are taking more away from the champ than you are adding.

and .....

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We're thinking about just removing the tank tag and replacing it with 'initiator' or something more descriptive. It's on our radar.-Guinsoo
I was splitting the two because I don't believe she fits the role of tank. And no one doubts her initiating ability, so your quote from Guinsoo is where I took off with the two definitions.

The reasons why I don't believe she is a tank are as follows.

While yes, her damage scales with HP, poorly, she doesn't have tankiness unique to her. What I mean, is that if Ashe can slow (which you have as a peel) then she can peel better than Sej having ranged quicker auto attacks and W wide range slows.

Ashe can also build strait HP, so she can soak as well as Sej, but she'd never be able to keep up with Amumu for example, making him unique as a tank, Sej is not in this area.

Um, I don't believe the threat comment was refuted, because in order to be a good soak you have to have a reason to be targeted.

Oh, and the reason you'd want AP for damage, while winds doesn't get any real damage from it, your Q, E, and R all scaled from AP. Poorly, but they don't get help from HP. You even post that you get AP to help deal a little more damage.

So to wrap it up, she was designed to be a tank, she just doesn't fit the role, according to Riot's definition.