Sejuani needs a bit of TLC

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as Desolator

Senior Member

10-30-2012

its about whos the most played champion sej is not played and will never get this buff


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Silly phone double post


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
I was impatient. I find it challenging to bump heads with people on our differing opinions, and I find it enjoyable when I can thoroughly prove my point with as many valid facts as possible. It's not only a mindset of a debater, but also an extreme competitiveness that I adopt when I get into this sort of thing.
As a debater I want to thank you for allowing me to change your opinion from not counting soft CC to calling it just controlling for a duration and finally listing champions that can CC for a duration of atleast 4 seconds. I had to let you do it so I had to throw you the Cho bone because you are the one that does not listen and only takes parts of statements.

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But I digress, I read through this entire post expecting some more refutable info. But, the further I went into it, the more I saw that there is a large possibility that we're not on the same page. Outside of my own opinions on what exactly should be done, I provided leagues of statistics and comparative information to complement anything I may have said. But, as I reread this for the second time, I only see you refusing to acknowledge whatever I present to you. All I can do is hang my head in frustration, as my message is in one ear, and out of the other.
You had leagues of stats for what though? How did you tie them into what should be done for Sejuani? Others do more damage... OK. Others are tougher... OK. Guess what? That isn't Sejuani. I'm sure your better gap closer is in your facts list even though its opinion. Your opinion about Sejuani is like a Vietnam movie where the butter bar comes in spewing facts as the enlisted men that have experience say..."that doesn't work'. Then you go out and get Sejuani killed and say she sucks.

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But, just because it bothers me........One last time, I'm gonna show you something. That list of champion names, was a list of every single champion in League of Legends that can CC for a minimum of 4 seconds. What I will now do, is fine tune that list, to be even more specific. This new list will be "Champions that can CC multiple targets for a minimum of 4 seconds, while also having a minimum of one form of hard CC". So, without further ado:

Cho'Gath, Cassiopeia, Galio, Lee Sin, Morgana, Nautilus, Sejuani, Zyra

There, I only did this because I couldnt leave well enough alone.
Again thank you for calling CC.. CC finally. Now that we are closer to the same page.

Cassiopeia, Lee Sin, Morgana and Zyra are generally not a tank or initiator. That leaves Cho who has sustain, Galio that has sustain and Nautilus that has sustain. What does Sejuani have that's different? Arguably the safest initiation in the game and without a doubt the safest 1 ,2 initiation punch. She does not need the sustain to initiate.

Now what does removing the stop on Q give Sejuani?

1) Increased damage through frost application
2) Increased threat to enemy priority targets because she can penetrate the front line
3) Increased chance to place the 2 second stun on priority target
4) Increased effectiveness as bottom support
5) Increased effectiveness as top
6) Increased survivability because she isn't body blocked
7) Increased survivability during tower dives
8)Increased ability to recover position to protect
9)Increased tank role by being a higher value target because she can get to carry or mage
10)Increased tank tole by being able to peal better
11) Increases effectiveness of chase vs champions that resist CC
12) Increased threat when both junglers are at the same lane because she can pass through
13) Increased bot lane gank effectiveness because she can pass support
14) Only question is this too strong?

What have you proven? She blows up and needs armor? No, I gave you 74 games worth of numbers in ranked. 178/265/682 that is not blowing up I think I also gave you 30 normal game numbers. 98/72/296 Sejuani does not need sustain.

What have you proven? Tenacity should not affect her mark? Been said and I agree.

What have you proven? She needs more damage? No, its not her role to single target damage. Btw you did see the game numbers right? 104 games worth? 276/337/978 No she doesn't.

What have you proven? Her passive needs more slow? No, it blurs early levels of E .

Everything Sejuani needs can be accomplished by the collision stop removal on Q.

I listen, I even gave you three extra champs that can avoid Sejuani... well anyone. I said knock up was better than knock back although a bad idea since it would be an instance ban. You.. you finally came around on CC, misquoted a wiki and quoted a dictionary.


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Beija

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
snip
This is only getting worse.

First, if you've ever read anything I've written up til now(I wish you have because I've sure been reading yours and BOY.) I've stated that Sejuani is able to "act" like a tank. Her problem is that she is really a one-trick pony.

You state that Sejuani has tools that helps her get her job done. That's fine and dandy but what exactly is her job as a tank.

*Soak up damage
*Protect the backline
*cripple opposing team
*provide threat if left alone for too long with Crowd Control

What does Sejuani do before initiation(Ult) that helps any of the pointed? What does her kit provide that helps after intiation.

This isn't a question of who's more skilled with Sejuani. I want to know what exactly can she do that will make me place her as someone to even attack once she ults. What, she can slow? So F****** What, FM DD Burnout Shyvana says "Hi".

Her W poses a long-term threat? What damage? 50% with 0 AP? Classic.

Stop kidding yourself and stop fooling others. You know what it looks like Sejuani playing the current meta? Everyone is in ferraris zooming around corners and you're in a honda, "trying" to fit in.

Sejuani needs help. I'm saying this because I've played her many times(victories in normal) and tried her in ranked. Even though I won, I felt I was always short-handed in every situation where I would be needed.

*****

You stated she has mechanics that helps her do what she was designed to do. Get in, cause havoc, get out. The last time I checked, The tank was the one to get in, mix sh*t up, and stay until he/she is the last one standing. Not gtfo when their is ult is done and have no more tricks up their sleeve.

That is where she falls inferior to other champions. This isn't me just telling you. You can ignore the charts all you like; Facts are Facts.

Tl;DR: Sejuani can initiate, I gave her that. Sejuani can't do anything else at an acceptable level. That's a no-brainer.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beija View Post
This is only getting worse.

First, if you've ever read anything I've written up til now(I wish you have because I've sure been reading yours and BOY.) I've stated that Sejuani is able to "act" like a tank. Her problem is that she is really a one-trick pony.
You are allowed to disagree but your snip cuts out the point you don't follow your own words.

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You state that Sejuani has tools that helps her get her job done. That's fine and dandy but what exactly is her job as a tank.

*Soak up damage
*Protect the backline
*cripple opposing team
*provide threat if left alone for too long with Crowd Control
The order you choose to describe the role of tank says a lot about how you think. Let's look at how Morello described it in a Leona post and let's look at Guinsoo talk about the term "tank"

Quote:
Riot on tanks

Leona is a bit special because she’s our answer to a pretty popular fan request; a female tank! I think a good place to start is to answer “what exactly does ‘tank’ mean to us at Riot?”

· Starts and initiates teamfights (usually via CC). · Soaks up damage. · May peel dangerous attackers off other vulnerable team mates. · Presents itself as an attractive target by causing long-term “threat” as the fight continues.- Morello
Quote:
We're thinking about just removing the tank tag and replacing it with 'initiator' or something more descriptive. It's on our radar.-Guinsoo
First initiation, this is amplified by Guinsoo imo by the suggestion of replacing tank with initiator. Second soak damage, I laid out 104 games that shows Sejuani can soak damage. Third, peel. Fourtj , be a threat. In my 12 points I listed improvements in all these areas but soak damage and I believe I have shown this is not the issue it is claimed to be.

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What does Sejuani do before initiation(Ult) that helps any of the pointed? What does her kit provide that helps after intiation.
I don't think you understand Riot said she is getting a buff. The point is where? If you did read I listed 12 or so points of improvement by removing the stop on Q.

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This isn't a question of who's more skilled with Sejuani. I want to know what exactly can she do that will make me place her as someone to even attack once she ults. What, she can slow? So F****** What, FM DD Burnout Shyvana says "Hi".
*sigh* Again you didn't even follow your own wisdom and so far your wisdom is wrong in your own case, so you should curse to yourself not me. Again if you did read Senate the points of improvement my suggested buff does, because... again... she is getting worked on.

Btw you haven't played Amumu, you did play Sejuani and are 1-0 and you cursed up Shyvana and are 0-1. Do you just like being a troll?

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Her W poses a long-term threat? What damage? 50% with 0 AP? Classic.
How about perma slow on auto attacks that feeds Permafrost? Yes W can get some killer damage to squishies. You wanna hang around long enough to get Permafrost applied before you run? What about if Q is back up? Did sejuani even use Q?

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Stop kidding yourself and stop fooling others. You know what it looks like Sejuani playing the current meta? Everyone is in ferraris zooming around corners and you're in a honda, "trying" to fit in.
OK says the guy that wouldn't pick Sejuani because she is a statistical fail then picks her and wins. OK the guy that says he would pick Amumu because he has a better win rate but doesn't pick him. OK the guy that says Shyvana says hi and is 0-1. When it appears that a Ferrari and a Honda are side by side you get confused.

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Sejuani needs help. I'm saying this because I've played her many times(victories in normal) and tried her in ranked. Even though I won, I felt I was always short-handed in every situation where I would be needed.
You haven't read anything I posted. She is getting a buff "soon" I just have a different opinion on where *face desk*
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*****

You stated she has mechanics that helps her do what she was designed to do. Get in, cause havoc, get out. The last time I checked, The tank was the one to get in, mix sh*t up, and stay until he/she is the last one standing. Not gtfo when their is ult is done and have no more tricks up their sleeve.
The trick up her sleeve is her mobility and desire to be focused because she "blows up" and has no sustain. Again............. check my 12 points and snip it. Last I checked no tank can force anyone to mix it up for the duration of a team fight in LoL. This isn't Perma taunt MMoRPG.

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That is where she falls inferior to other champions. This isn't me just telling you. You can ignore the charts all you like; Facts are Facts.

Tl;DR: Sejuani can initiate, I gave her that. Sejuani can't do anything else at an acceptable level. That's a no-brainer.
You said you read. OH BOY! I think you missed comprehention though. I laid it out in about 12 points. Take your Honda back around the block and read it again.


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Mrs Heimerdinger

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by as Desolator View Post
its about whos the most played champion sej is not played and will never get this buff
This is false. Rumble recently got nerfed even though he is seldom used. Urgot was recently nerfed. He too is rarely picked.

Ezreal got a brand new "Theme" although at the time he was underused. Give Riot a little more credit than that. Twisted Fate got a graphic update although he was barely used.

Try again.


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Beija

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post



The order you choose to describe the role of tank says a lot about how you think. Let's look at how Morello described it in a Leona post and let's look at Guinsoo talk about the term "tank"
Thank you for pretty much confirming what I just told you without having to run to a red for validation.

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First initiation, this is amplified by Guinsoo imo by the suggestion of replacing tank with initiator. Second soak damage, I laid out 104 games that shows Sejuani can soak damage. Third, peel. Fourtj , be a threat. In my 12 points I listed improvements in all these areas but soak damage and I believe I have shown this is not the issue it is claimed to be.
Again more attempts at crawling at a Red's feet for vaildation. Even though I agree Sejuani role should be changed into Initiator because that's all she's capable of doing.

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I don't think you understand Riot said she is getting a buff. The point is where? If you did read I listed 12 or so points of improvement by removing the stop on Q.
I at more than happy about the "reported" buffs. Hopefully they hit the right areas for improvment.(QoL, increased Ratios, removal of old "Shen-Syndrome")



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Btw you haven't played Amumu, you did play Sejuani and are 1-0 and you cursed up Shyvana and are 0-1. Do you just like being a troll?
Ok, so you want to carry as a child I see. I gave you the courteousy and didn't even bring your personal experience into this but since you want to play that game... *opens hands welcomely* let's play.

You say I've played Sejuani and won, This is true. You say I've played Shyvana and lost. This is also true. What you seem to miss out is that I've played A LOT of champs and tried with them. Can I say that my experience with each said champ has brought me together as a better player? Of course because I've learned something new with each one. Every champion gave me a different experience on what to expect from them AND from others inside a game.

Now, let's look at you. OH many games with just Sejuani.. ONE game with Maokai, ONE game with Leona(And both are loses). Now I come to your very broad usage of champions(Not really) and ask you this; How do you know anything about balance among the roster if you only play one character? What do you know... No, What the hell do you know? You only play Sejuani; if anything, you probably do believe Amumu isn't better because you probably believe he doesn't exist right?

Oh? You've played against him before? You must know a lot about him then... You must know the proper places where amumu would jump in from then, you must know what his most common jungle route is then. You must know how long it takes for him to move through jungle then. Oh, you don't? Because you only play Sejuani? Well I'll be damned.

Can I say that you only like Sejuani? Yes, Hell I can say you are only capable with Sejuani...a failed champ.. lol.

Such a childish remark from you and I really expected more from a person who's so defensive with their character with better remarks.

Tl;DR: Someone who only plays one character and has knowledge of one character has zero credibility when determining the meta because their opinions are mostly biased.(as seen from majority of your posts).




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How about perma slow on auto attacks that feeds Permafrost? Yes W can get some killer damage to squishies. You wanna hang around long enough to get Permafrost applied before you run? What about if Q is back up? Did sejuani even use Q?
Irrelevant, That's health i'm getting back just by standing still and shooting her for LS.

Killer damage? Biased is already bleeding through....

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OK says the guy that wouldn't pick Sejuani because she is a statistical fail then picks her and wins. OK the guy that says he would pick Amumu because he has a better win rate but doesn't pick him. OK the guy that says Shyvana says hi and is 0-1. When it appears that a Ferrari and a Honda are side by side you get confused.
Another childish attempt.

Herp, Just because I didn't pick Amumu yet, doesn't mean I won't pick him in the future where he will still be more viable than Segooni.


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You haven't read anything I posted. She is getting a buff "soon" I just have a different opinion on where *face desk*
Good, hopefully they listen to someone with general knowledge of the game and balance and not some fanatic.

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The trick up her sleeve is her mobility and desire to be focused because she "blows up" and has no sustain. Again............. check my 12 points and snip it. Last I checked no tank can force anyone to mix it up for the duration of a team fight in LoL. This isn't Perma taunt MMoRPG.
You don't "blow up" something that isn't a threat in the first place. I let Sejuani live to be the last one because she can't do anything by herself. GP5 item build will forever leave her behind and sadly, being item dependent isn't her fault.

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You said you read. OH BOY! I think you missed comprehention though. I laid it out in about 12 points. Take your Honda back around the block and read it again.
Comprehension*


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RockJockey

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Sejuani Buffs? Hopefully soon.
-Rockjockey


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Okay, I've read through Rav and Beija posts. Woah, so many quotes.

First, Sej needs work. That is pretty clear. Removing her stop on Q won't make her a tank, since all she can do is initiate.

Of this list "
· Starts and initiates teamfights (usually via CC). · Soaks up damage. · May peel dangerous attackers off other vulnerable team mates. · Presents itself as an attractive target by causing long-term “threat” as the fight continues.- Morello"

Sejuani can only do 1 well and a 2nd if fed or given enough time. So let's take these 1 at a time.

* Sejuani can initiate very well, that's really all she can do.
* She can soak damage if she is given enough time, but even with full defense/hp runes and masteries she can't "soak" damage until mid-late game. none of her abilities assists with this, she has to build straight HP/Armor/MR. And if that's soak then what champion can't do that? Even Teemo can build 100% defense items and "soak" as well as Sejuani.
* She can't peel if given 1 hour head start. She can't even CC them off unless ult is saved, and even then 1-2 seconds depending on who it hit. After that she can slow, well slowing in a team fight means nothing since they are running at you and you at them, if your team is in range then they are in range, slowing keeps everyone in range longer, which is pretty much the enemy's goal anyhow. She can't silence, she can't knock back (Q has a stop of sorts, but most use it as an escape or initiate), she can't pull, she can't burn down the opponent, she can't freeze a second time. Wait, Ashe can do the same things, maybe a pure defense Ashe should be played, because they'd do the same damage but Ashe has a better slow and similar ult, plus range.....
* Attractive target due to long-term threat. I'm not even sure I have to argue this one, but here goes. She has an initial CC and then nothing for 60 more seconds. She has a terribly slow AOE burn that is not threatening unless you build her AP, and then she goes pop if hit and is no longer a tank by any definition. Though I will say, if she isn't 100% pure defense she is an attractive target because she dies easily, if 100% pure defense/hp then not attractive because she is no threat and can't easily be killed.

So... Sejuani is not a tank. She is not a bruiser (off-tank). She isn't a carry or assassin. She must be an initiator. But she isn't much else. She isn't good 1v1, she isn't a tank as we've already proven. So if she isn't a tank, doesn't do damage, then is she really the one champ that isn't meant to be played?

We need to define initiator. And it needs to include more than a toss of an ultimate and a slow. Even tanks are expected to have threat, peel and initiation. Sejuani is the one champion that only has 1 ability. 2 if you count the ability to Q out of a fight. So initiator/coward. Uhm, no, that's not good enough. Ahri, Voli, Singed, Darius, Blitz, Amumu, Ashe, Morgana, Aniva, Cass, Cho, Diana, Ali, Hec, Jarvan, Jayce, Leona, Lux, Pantheon, Poppy, Skarner, Tristana, Lee, and Veigar could all be classified as Initiators. All have abilities that stun, pull or a lunge/jump followed by some ability to slow, silence, do big damage, or otherwise tank. I may have missed a few. But all of these champions have other abilities, such as being able to tank (already established Sej is not a tank), do good damage output (Ashe, Trist, Cho, Hec to name a few), or assassinate (Ahri, Diana, even Poppy). You could argue that stuns like Lux or Morgana aren't initiates (then Sej's Ult isn't much different, or that Viegar or Jarvan who have a ring of death that can't be escaped, aren't initiates, but then neither does Sej, who 1 second stuns a crowd and then slows them.

The point is that every single champion is at least 2 dimensional in respect to their abilities, except for Sejuani. She really only has her initiation and coward button. All because she has no base defense, no defense abilities, no peel, and no damage. She feels like an almost tanky melee Ashe with no offense to supplement her initiation. Removing stop on Q does not make her a tank, it does not give her peel or the ability to be a long-term threat. It gives her position, but that's it. That's not a dimension. It gives her the ability to jump past the first line and use ult on the ADC, or the ability to run (coward button improvement).

Her CC is fine, leave her slow (not that impressive with horrible attack speed), her E (which has an impressive slow if you can apply frost from horrible attack speed, her dash or ult, but then coward button is gone), and leave her ult, arguably the best initiation in the game if only for 1 second, 2 seconds on their initiator which is probably a tank and not a focus anyhow, so 1 second in reality, if they don't have tenacity.

She is the most 1 dimensional character in the game and isn't that unique for that 1 dimension.


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Desocupado

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Well, since she won't scale, she could use buffed base skill damage, effects and/or stats.