Sejuani needs a bit of TLC

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Thessalonike

Senior Member

11-01-2012

@ARCTICFURY

I took notes on a post it so I wouldn't need to quote and hopefully I can answer several posts coherently.

I am a bit confused about where I thought you started and where you are honestly. First you said she was a great concept that lacked tankiness, damage and had long cooldowns and you hoped changes wouldn't change her kit or what makes her unique. Now it seems all your posts are about how she isn't unique and all her changes should make her even less unique and more like Amumu.

I understand what you are saying in regards to Ashe but with current popular bans like Amu, Shen, Malph and Ali don't you think tank Ashe would be played more if she was that much better than Sej at tanking? We both could make cases for other champions too, maybe Morgana, Lulu, Cass, Sona... maybe even Anivia. Your presentation sounds correct and it all makes sense on paper. It just doesn't happen though it must be experience, we are headed to season 3 some pro should have figured this out.

Amumu I did agree has good damage and honestly I love playing against Amu. I just need to remind my team that they can still use abilities while snared. Its fun when he tosses into my team and lays down curse thinking his team will follow and then I ult his team from distance, even if i get caught in snare leaving him to be focused. (Yes you can focus a tank if its the only target in range) then I drop E and its play catch up. Every game doesn't present that senerio but its the best when it does happen.

Ty for the comment on my Sej play and I like the fact I am at 50% and think will be better than that "soon".

Warning incoming boo hoo talk*

I stand at 39/39 but outside of placement I am 37/32 I had one win vs 4 and two losses vs 4 because of leavers 36/30 and I played two games back to back as Support Sejuani where we had an elo booster destroy... really destroy our mid and then roam. 36/28 is what I feel my accomplishment is. I know it doesn't work that way but I know in straight games that's where I believe my percentage will end in season 3 without buffs... in the 70% range. Because the more I play the more it should balance.

About buffs. I firmly believe my 13 points of improvement exist with Q stop removal. Season 3 jungle is supposed to be harder so I assume she will get a base stat buff. So now she has a base stat and a Q stop removal in my ideal situation.

Her true problem is she can't game change and I believe its in her ult. Look at it hard, its a nerfed

Flash Frost- 1100 unit range passes through damaging and slowing then blows up on command damaging and stunning for 1second.

Glacial Prision- Gains 50 units but stops on contact stunning for 2 on target hit and 1second on others and blows up on contact or max range.

Mana, damage, CD, ratios, burst size etc left out to focus on how it works.

If I could aim that 2 second stun where I wanted I do think I would improve my win ratio quicker so yes I think my Q stop removal would be a big impact.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RageOtter View Post
It seems everyone agrees that Seju needs some love from riot though everyone save Raviance would like to see larger changes to make her more useful to her team.
I don't know who you are but I wish you would present your opinion as such and not tell others what I want and don't want. This thread is not everyone either, sensationalizm is foolish. Most players want sweeping changes to Sejuani and some think she is very close now and even a smaller number believe she is fine where she is.

If I read to much into that I apologize but...

Smaller changes can make her more useful to her team too. Smaller changes can have very large impacts.

First, season 3 is getting a tougher jungle that will be harder for champions that are not single target oriented. So expect Sejuani to get at least base stat bumps just from this change alone.

Now you may not agree with my proposed changes which is totally fine, but I took the time to write out 13 points of improvement for Sejuani I believe removing the Q stop will produce. Which include more damage through application of abilities, more threat by being able to go straight to priority targets, better application of CC and getting her out of the jungle just to name a few. You don't have to agree with them. But dont present to people I don't want her to be more useful because that is just being rude. You said nothing of them and just told me to be quiet and get out of a thread, which are usually made for discussions. I don't think I ever told anyone they were wrong or that they should shut up because they don't play Sejuani. I simply said I have a different vantage point.

Quote:
Personally I agree with the others that she has an interesting and fun kit potential but as Arcticfury called it the "Coward button" does not help your team enough to justify a slight modification of this skill alone. Yes you can preform a Houdini at a critical moment and save your own skin while maybe drawing a split second of attention while people re-target. The problem is you aren't being a team player by filling the role your team needs you to fill, which seems to be the crux of what most people want to see change with Sejuani. From what I have seen despite the constant mention of Raviance being ok with others having an opinion he has done his best to shoot them down in favor of his own. Ok we get it, by now we all know you favor removal of stop on Q, if you really do wish to allow others their opinion just leave it well enough alone. It is obvious that no one has yet to agree here, and if riot chooses from the options here they will have seen both sides already. Everyone simply wishes to make Seju a champion that is more fun and viable to play in their own ways.
So you want me to be quiet as you lay false claims about my intention? Well I wont. I would have continued a civil discussion with Arcticfury and not even addressed your post but I guss we are not allowed since I must be quiet. Guess what? Your opinion and the opinion of everyone in this thread has been hashed 100 times over in Sejuani threads prior to this one. I must be quiet but you are free to promote the changes you want.. even though any simple search would show you its been said before. I was having direct conversation with other players after an initial comment if you don't think that's fair I don't know what to say.

As you see I address nothing about your changes because we talked about these already in threads long before this one and you addressed nothing about my changes other than plucking a catch phrase, but yes I jump in every Sejuani thread I can find because I play a lot of Sejuani! I also find players to include Riot rickless that seem to believe she is closer than you believe. Riot looks at threads and if a different Rioter sees this I hope they weigh my opinion fairly and take into account I actually use this champion.

So please allow me and Arcticfury the courtesy to continue our talk until we are finished. If you want me to post less I will... if you don't address me.

See the harder jungle is already going to give her either additional sustain or damage, maybe both to make it through. Riot has said it is the reason they are waiting on her adjustments. I want Q stop removal in addition. I don't mention the others things because they are likely happening anyhow.

I addressed the OP because he is the OP, Arctic because we have talked before and even though we may disagree he is more than fair.

Pom addressed me
Beija addressed me
Talim commented on me

I simply reminded Loin snare is soft CC and agreed Amu has good damage

You commented on me

I am not forcing anything.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

11-02-2012

@ Raviance

I do want to keep her kit the same. Meaning I want her dash, winds, perma frost, and ult. I love that uniqueness. My argument is that she either needs to be made a true tank without changing those skills, so by adding MR/Armor to winds, more base HP or something to give her more true soak without having to run in and out to remain alive and not a feeder or runner. Or, my preference, they make her more of an initiator/new role champion. Do this by adding a little more damage and a silence to E, or something that allows her to be more of a threat, more CC, more something, without becoming OP.

I'm wanting them to tweak the kit, not change it. Add a little something in there to make her do more damage, have more HP, better AP ratios, better HP ratios, added soft CC, lower cooldowns. Really a combination of some of these, but not all.

My stats with Ashe, Amumu or whomever I compare her with is to simply show that, while her abilities are unique or are designed to be unique, their outcome is not because she doesn't have a second dimension or those abilities aren't stronger than her competition. Other champs can be built to do similar things though it's not their true purpose. Ashe could be built to be a ranged Sejuani, though her damage would be low (kinda like Sej). The problem with that is that an AD ranged champion can be built to become just like Sejuani. Sej however can't be built to do high damage like Ashe. Why can a squishy champ be built into a less optimal role and be like Sejuani's true roll? Sejuani should be better at that role by a good measure.

So, to sum it up, her kit is unique if it were a little stronger. Because it is weak, other champions can be tweaked to be similar, taking away her uniqueness. It's like Usain Bolt (like Ashe) is very good at one thing, running fast (or ADC). If Usain Bolt could simply change his clothes/gear and jump in the pool and keep up with Phelps, then Phelps wouldn't be unique, he wouldn't be the best at what he does. The pool is clearly not Usain's strength. Tanking isn't Ashe's, but she can nearly, or perhaps, surpass Sejuani in most situations, by altering her gear and play style. If runners could keep up with or surpass the swimmers then we'd have to remove swimming from the Olympics because it wouldn't be a real competition. It's like a swimmer having cool fins and flippers but not being able to swim faster than a runner. That's wrong. Sejuani should be either the best at what she does or in the group of the best. I think it should be initiation.

Conclusion, unique abilities does not make a unique outcome if they are weak.


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Private Riem

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticfury View Post
@ Raviance

I do want to keep her kit the same. Meaning I want her dash, winds, perma frost, and ult. I love that uniqueness. My argument is that she either needs to be made a true tank without changing those skills, so by adding MR/Armor to winds, more base HP or something to give her more true soak without having to run in and out to remain alive and not a feeder or runner. Or, my preference, they make her more of an initiator/new role champion. Do this by adding a little more damage and a silence to E, or something that allows her to be more of a threat, more CC, more something, without becoming OP.

I'm wanting them to tweak the kit, not change it. Add a little something in there to make her do more damage, have more HP, better AP ratios, better HP ratios, added soft CC, lower cooldowns. Really a combination of some of these, but not all.

My stats with Ashe, Amumu or whomever I compare her with is to simply show that, while her abilities are unique or are designed to be unique, their outcome is not because she doesn't have a second dimension or those abilities aren't stronger than her competition. Other champs can be built to do similar things though it's not their true purpose. Ashe could be built to be a ranged Sejuani, though her damage would be low (kinda like Sej). The problem with that is that an AD ranged champion can be built to become just like Sejuani. Sej however can't be built to do high damage like Ashe. Why can a squishy champ be built into a less optimal role and be like Sejuani's true roll? Sejuani should be better at that role by a good measure.

So, to sum it up, her kit is unique if it were a little stronger. Because it is weak, other champions can be tweaked to be similar, taking away her uniqueness. It's like Usain Bolt (like Ashe) is very good at one thing, running fast (or ADC). If Usain Bolt could simply change his clothes/gear and jump in the pool and keep up with Phelps, then Phelps wouldn't be unique, he wouldn't be the best at what he does. The pool is clearly not Usain's strength. Tanking isn't Ashe's, but she can nearly, or perhaps, surpass Sejuani in most situations, by altering her gear and play style. If runners could keep up with or surpass the swimmers then we'd have to remove swimming from the Olympics because it wouldn't be a real competition. It's like a swimmer having cool fins and flippers but not being able to swim faster than a runner. That's wrong. Sejuani should be either the best at what she does or in the group of the best. I think it should be initiation.

Conclusion, unique abilities does not make a unique outcome if they are weak.
I personally think she should be queen of anti-mobility.
Theorically, that would include anti-blinks, but not sure how Riot would go around doing that.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

11-02-2012

@arcticfury,

i think our biggest difference is two things,

the first is in the way we define the term "tank" and "initiator". you continue to separate the two terms leaning initiator towards a new role and i believe riot has already said that in this game the idea of a tank is actually performing this new role and they think it might even be beneficial to remove the term tank because it is confusing to most and most players that mistakingly equate it to a mmorpg damage soak.

the second is where we believe the uniqueness is. i don't find the abilities unique whether its q,w,e or r they simply are not unique to me. i find her play style unique, she is the only tank without sustain and that is unique it means you got to play her outside of the box to have any success solo queue... that is unique to me. it is fun, a unique experience. if you just slap some sustain on her and give her some damage you just made amumu... or some might say nautilus.

i believe the new jungle will further her base stats from ashe, and it doesn't matter any champ can be built any way. last night i had to build a tank lulu and in another game we had an open inhibitor on the enemy side and i swear i asked for 20 minutes for someone to go solo it. so i sold everything on galio and did it myself... yea adc galio... pfft. but i did it, was it the best use of galio? no but i did get an honor because i helped them understand objectives not kills win the game. any champ can do anything. minus ap on a champ that has no ap, etc. any ranged tank of equal or similar value should be superior, i was actually going to go tank ashe but my son doesn't have ashe... lol.

i'm going to take your lead concluding sentence and twist it a tad. her kit is not unique (imo its her play that is) if it were a little stronger in the way the majority want to it makes her less unique making her similar to other champions.

squishy is not weak... ive used this before and i know chumbler hates it but, sejuani is more of an m10 or m18 requiring mobility over armor, we have enough m26's in the game. the other tanks are like a rod in the spokes where sejuani is the thorn in the tire. her abilities are not unique the way to play her is.

build on what makes sejuani unique, make her 325ms she would be by far the fastest tank, increase her mobility to separate her even further from the other tanks. i tried to lay out how removing the stop on "q" improves virtually everything but sustain. sejuani having a coward button among tanks.... is unique. its only foolish because everyone keeps priority and focus on damage soak when in this game it is an impossibility, no tank here can force you to fight them for the entire duration of a fight. make her immune to cc of some sort no tank has that, increase the speed of her dash to near blink, anything, anything but take her uniqueness and throw her back in line with near same damage and sustain by the numbers.

conclusion (and i guess that's it?) she has no unique ability... none of them are, she has a unique play style and you cant run her in similiar to other tanks to be effective. please don't take that away.

oh arcticfury try posting with no cap letters until rickless can give us an update o sejuani and an approximate "soon" time.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

11-02-2012

@rav

okay, no caps it is, this is tough because i have to keep backspacing o.0 (zero instead of cap)

anyhow, as i have said before. i really think she is a little below par and that so many things can be done with her. making her more mobile would be awesome, but i'd still like to be more than a thorn in a tire, especially since not all champs have a tire. or maybe a thorn that burrows or has a poison.

so, why not make her have a little punch. just a little, more mobile, with a little more punch and she'd be fine. she doesn't need to be a true tank. and i do support adding new roles, that way we don't have to play the stupid meta. keep tank, add initiator, have two different types of support (healers/buffers, and cc/tanky) which we almost have, they just need to separate them a bit more.

if the new jungle is tougher sej will get creamed, since she doesn't do enough damage and has poor defense for a tank. she will need more than a stop removal. she'll need a little pop to her or a little defense. i'd love your suggestion as long as you added more damage somehow.


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Mooseville

Senior Member

11-02-2012

While I may not agree with everything that is being said, I'm happy that the topic is garnering a lot of attention


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

11-02-2012

@fury

yea it is tough with no caps but rickless has been the most visible rioter when it comes to sejuani and he does it for... you know... reasons. he was kind enough to respond to me in a non sejuani thread too. but still no news.

she is a little below par, she has a real hard time being a factor when the game needs turned around. a little punch is fine i think it will required for the new jungle, its the given reason by riot why she is taking so long to look at.

i tried to convey that my suggestion would/could add more damage (in addition to whatever jungle buff brings) but i am trying to keep her out of duel status either i'm bad at it... or i'm bad at it, or others want her to duel. they could even make northern winds radius larger or what would be truly unique is allow us to move the winds in any direction kind of like a hula-hoop.

she will get buffs for jungle as i understand it that's why we have a delay...


shh... but i bet she is getting a new skin or a model adjustment too.


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TheMrWreckz

Senior Member

11-02-2012

RIOT PLZ sej is one of the coolest and funnest champs in League but im scared to buy her b.c i hear she is unviable or unreliable. same with rammus i hear he is fun but falls off thanks to a patch that nerfed him into the forgotten zone. i also hear that rammus is getting a buff/re-work WHY NOT sej commmmon riot.

<3 for love, now please fix


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
While I may not agree with everything that is being said, I'm happy that the topic is garnering a lot of attention
yea we should say what we think and try not to call each other wrong, but be happy each post brings this to the front so another may join in. sejuani has had a bit of attention for a while but most threads eventually die out even the thread rickless posted a lot in.

moose do you know of the sejuani thread rickless posted in? he doesn't use cap letters... for reasons. until we learn more in at least sejuani threads we should not use caps until we get more info as a sign of...well, something.