Sejuani needs a bit of TLC

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Beija

Senior Member

10-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
When you argue why would you ever pick Sejuani over Amu and claim a losing record will follow on the message board. When behind the scene you pick Sejuani and have a winning record. You are just trying to stir up an argument. You knew at that point your own record was in conflict with your post and used it to simply argue.
Last post ever in this thread...

1.) I never claimed I lost anything with anyone. I've stated what I believe will help Sejuani in terms of buffs and changes. Hopefully she DOES get some sustain or a skill that will help her cause.

2.) I argue "why" because Amumu is better. People has said, charts has proven it. End of story. When deciding whats best for the team; 9/10 Amumu will be the better option. Yell at the statistics for that one.. not me.

3.) Whether I win or lose with Sejuani means absolutely nothing in terms of giving an unbiased opinion on a champion. What so I won with Sejuani.. Am I suppose to say she's the best thing since sliced bread because I won? HELL NO.

4.) After Playing, researching, analyzing Sejuani; I was able to come to the conclusion of just what she is capable of. People here(Moose, Artic) has told you what shes capable of. No one cares if she's "different". Like Kakashi said, "Different isn't always better." and Sejuani's score on the charts proves it.

5.) Sejuani is labeled as a TANK. If her Kit says otherwise, then RIOT should do everyone a favor and say "Sejuani isn't a tank. Surprise?" So not only will she not be a tank, she will be a poor excuse for a melee champ.

TL;DR: Do you like the pokemon move struggle?


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beija View Post
Last post ever in this thread...

1.) I never claimed I lost anything with anyone. I've stated what I believe will help Sejuani in terms of buffs and changes. Hopefully she DOES get some sustain or a skill that will help her cause.
Good everyone should have an opinion.

Quote:
2.) I argue "why" because Amumu is better. People has said, charts has proven it. End of story. When deciding whats best for the team; 9/10 Amumu will be the better option. Yell at the statistics for that one.. not me.
How is it best for the team if its not your best champion? Sorry to see you go but if you are 10-0 with Sejuani and 0-10 with Amumu you are telling me you are taking Amumu because a chart that your play affects says she is better and because other people say she is better?

By the way you are the only one cursing and yelling.

Quote:
3.) Whether I win or lose with Sejuani means absolutely nothing in terms of giving an unbiased opinion on a champion. What so I won with Sejuani.. Am I suppose to say she's the best thing since sliced bread because I won? HELL NO.
Nope you just need to realize that just because she has a 40%(ish) win rate that does not mean everyone only wins 40% of the time with her. Some win more some win less... its usually called an average.

Quote:
4.) After Playing, researching, analyzing Sejuani; I was able to come to the conclusion of just what she is capable of. People here(Moose, Artic) has told you what shes capable of. No one cares if she's "different". Like Kakashi said, "Different isn't always better." and Sejuani's score on the charts proves it.
OK you and everyone have an opinion and I have said you are allowed your own opinion. You gave me an opinion of what you think she is capable of in your hands, I gave you my opinion. I also told you why I believe she is in the place she is in.

Like Kakashi said, "Different isn't always better."... which means sometimes it is. Sejuani score... again I gave the reason why I believe it is the way it is and I believe the calls to make her Nat'umu instead of Sejuani verifies this.

Quote:
5.) Sejuani is labeled as a TANK. If her Kit says otherwise, then RIOT should do everyone a favor and say "Sejuani isn't a tank. Surprise?" So not only will she not be a tank, she will be a poor excuse for a melee champ.
Her kit is tank imo. A shield does not make a tank in this game.


Quote:
TL;DR: Do you like the pokemon move struggle?
I dont know you seem more familiar with it. You nit picked what you wanted to answer, avoided the tough stuff... so it seems even though you may not agree with my points I had enough power to answer them. You just damaged yourself throughout by not having the power to answer with counter points.


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Loinator

Recruiter

11-01-2012

Unfortunately, Sejuani has 0 tankness. Personal bulky abilities.
CC means the champion is a tank now? I guess no.

So, Sejuani is not a tank champion AT ALL.

Also Amumu outclass her right now. That's a fact man. (do more damage, take less damage, and have 2 hard CC's instead of 1 of Sejuani).

I can't believe people can't realize that .-.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Ashe base stats at levels 1 and 18 respectively:
Base Health 474 / 1817
Health Regen 1.0 / 2.9/sec
Armor 14.9 / 72.7
MR 30 / 30

Sejuani base stats at levels 1 and 18 respectively:
Base Health 535 / 1980
Health Regen 1.6 / 4.5/sec
Armor 21 / 80.5
MR 31.2 / 52.5

So the base stats on Sej are really only better by a sliver other than MR and a little Regen (that regen won't make a ton of difference 16 more hp over 10 secs).

So Ashe can nearly soak as much damage if she is in the middle of things. You added Q as an additional soak if you can get chasers, Ashe has a far bigger slow on her auto attacks or W than Sej does, and is a better kiter, giving her equal or better 'soak'. Oh, Q doesn't work if you run into a champ, so I see why the stop needs removed. Ashe is ranged and doesn't need a Q, and anyone that hops on her is beyond their team and is vulnerable. And if dashing, jumping, lunging, or flashing is part of the soak, then how is that unique? EZ has a great flash and is a high priority target, so he will get chasers. Trist has a very nice jump. Ziggs has a jump. Pantheon has a jump. Teemo has a sprint. All of these can build tanky and have that same or better soak. And everyone can add a flash to their spells.

I can make arguments to show that Sejuani really doesn't have any feature that makes her unique to tanking other than you HAVE to build HP in order to do damage, so you have that innate tanky feel, but no real mitigation. She has no tanking abilities. Everything about Sejuani is item dependent and not level dependent. Her base stats are too low and scale too slow. Up front you either have to build mitigation or HP, one leaves you vulnerable to being lit up, the other gives you less damage output.

So what makes Sejuani unique? Her ult. And that is similar to Veigar and Jarvan.

She isn't unique enough, and doesn't do enough damage to keep up with these other players. That's my point. She is too item dependent and has no efficient way of gaining them quick enough, and given enough time she needs at least 8 slots, not 6.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loinator View Post
Unfortunately, Sejuani has 0 tankness. Personal bulky abilities.
CC means the champion is a tank now? I guess no.

So, Sejuani is not a tank champion AT ALL.

Also Amumu outclass her right now. That's a fact man. (do more damage, take less damage, and have 2 hard CC's instead of 1 of Sejuani).

I can't believe people can't realize that .-.
A snare is not a hard CC... his fantastic damaging ult that hits everyone for 2 seconds is soft crowd control....

Facts are not always facts it seems.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
A snare is not a hard CC... his fantastic damaging ult that hits everyone for 2 seconds is soft crowd control....

Facts are not always facts it seems.
Well other than missing the point on HARD CC vs. soft CC, he was right, Amumu does more damage and takes less damage than Sej.

Perhaps, just perhaps, they could remove her stop on Q and add MR/Armor buff to W. Then when she is in the middle of things she can actually mitigate damage. Make it scaleable, like, 5,10,15,20,25 to both for each level. Or add a slow to enemies attack speed when frost is applied. And I still think that a higher damage is needed. No one refuted, nor can they, my post on how little damage she actually does to a single target. It'd take a full 10-15 seconds to burn down EZ at level 18, if he just stood there trading blows. Not sure Sej could make it that long.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
Good everyone should have an opinion.

....
Nope you just need to realize that just because she has a 40%(ish) win rate that does not mean everyone only wins 40% of the time with her. Some win more some win less... its usually called an average.
Okay, with all of the stinking quotes I can't find something I just read. So can we all agree, me included, that we can just put @so&so and they will honor that you are referring to their post and we don't need to quote?

So this was my last quote.

Rav, you win with her 50% of the time and play her nearly exclusively. That's above average. How is that good enough? Are you really an average player or is she below average? Do you think removing stops on Q will change your record that much? I actually believe you have to be super spectacular to hit 50% with her in ranked solo/duo since you can't guarantee coordination.

I agree that removing stops is needed, but I disagree that she is set up with a kit for tanking. A dash and required high HP doesn't a tank make. So either they need to design her as an initiator and make her have more than 1 dimension, or make her a true tank.


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RageOtter

Junior Member

11-01-2012

It seems everyone agrees that Seju needs some love from riot though everyone save Raviance would like to see larger changes to make her more useful to her team. Personally I agree with the others that she has an interesting and fun kit potential but as Arcticfury called it the "Coward button" does not help your team enough to justify a slight modification of this skill alone. Yes you can preform a Houdini at a critical moment and save your own skin while maybe drawing a split second of attention while people re-target. The problem is you aren't being a team player by filling the role your team needs you to fill, which seems to be the crux of what most people want to see change with Sejuani. From what I have seen despite the constant mention of Raviance being ok with others having an opinion he has done his best to shoot them down in favor of his own. Ok we get it, by now we all know you favor removal of stop on Q, if you really do wish to allow others their opinion just leave it well enough alone. It is obvious that no one has yet to agree here, and if riot chooses from the options here they will have seen both sides already. Everyone simply wishes to make Seju a champion that is more fun and viable to play in their own ways.

Now for my two cents:

Frost is just not enough as is, 10% is half of what many other tanky types and junglers have to work with. Maokai has a level one arcane smash at 20% while Olaf's undertow is 24%, with the short cooldown and range on Maokai and the ability to pick up axes on Olaf it is fairly simple to keep a perma slow that functions better than Sejuani's base slow. Of course she does have permafrost but I would like to propose a change as to how those two interact and exactly what permafrost itself does so I'll get to that later, for now passive. I think the passive should start out at roughly 20% and increase maybe 2% per level, or as someone else suggested awhile ago have an increase at 6, 11, and 16. As a slow based character her ability to keep a reasonably useful slow on even one person for an extended period of time is marginal at best.

There has been some discussion on making arctic assault knock up however I think a knock back with a variable range on the skill would provide a more interesting solution and initiation. At first it probably seems like a stupid suggestion however by offering a variable range you can also change the knock back effect to how far she charges. This also provides a rewarding skill element similar to the Alistar w into q combination where your skill as a player in choosing where to stop as a gap closer could make or break a gank or initiation. While at the same time it gives her the ability to peel enemies off her carries and make for some nice ganking potential.

As for Northern Winds well maybe you could retain it with an improvement to her passive however I would kind of prefer it to be more unique as a skill. Maybe make it a toggle effect that drains mana per second gives her armor / MR to make up for her using paper mache as armor and have it apply frost to anyone who hits you. Helps with her early clears by applying frost for permafrost, and giving her some extra sustain and survivability to let her gank without going back to base. Although perhaps a little too much incorporating a reflect into this skill might make her a little more unique as well, many champions have skills that mimic an item why not give her a built in Thornmail. Either way this would require some careful balancing on the mana requirements but would give her some extra survivability while making her more of a threat that you would want to bother focusing down.

To coincide with the changes to her passive and other skills reducing the cooldown on permafrost to make it her skill for damage. Couple this with her improved passive to already generate a slow that stays on and her toggle w to automatically apply it to anyone that hits her or she auto attacks and it should be fairly effective for jungle clear without being too overpowered. Now as far as status the loss of a strong limited aoe slow would seem like it ruins her to some degree but I would rather propose instead of a slow permafrost applies a short root effect that can only apply every set number of seconds maybe 7 or 10 seconds. Couple it with a cooldown of maybe 3 seconds for the sake of it being useful in jungle clears and her both slightly nerfed and improved ability to apply her passive and it would give her another form of cc besides a slow that may make her have more utility in a team fight.

As for her ult I agree with everyone else that it is fine as is

Now before anyone says I am trying to make her too OP I would like to say I am not trying to say they should change her so completely as I proposed. More along the lines of throwing out some ideas for how to modify her kit for the sake of discussion. Could those changes all work and be balanced properly, yes but it would take some work to get the numbers just right to do so. I am more interested in just seeing what everyone else thinks whether she gets sweeping changes or just a minor modification. I definitely don't envy riot trying to keep the cult of Seju happy while making her a champ playable for everyone else.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Her damage is still too low even with your suggestions RageOtter. I completely agree her CC is incomplete if they want to make her unique in that fashion. But her damage output and lack of damage mitigation keep her from fitting well in any role.

I love her uniqueness, so I ran on about making the new roll of initiator. But if you can't keep up in the leveling phase (perhaps almost keep up if you jungle), then how can you be a factor late game. She is in the top 5 of gold dependent champions. Every last skill relies completely on gear. She has no way of successfully farming that gear. Even with assists, and you need a lot of them, she can't farm fast enough, and she isn't meant to have a decent, let alone high, kill count.

So Sej needs gold, has no way of getting gold. Even with gold she is 1 dimensional which is incomplete.


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RageOtter

Junior Member

11-01-2012

I agree, the point of lowering cooldown on her e was to help her damage output. Three seconds might be low enough and a slight change in mana cost and damage would maybe allow her to apply mark to multiple targets during laning before hitting e for some damage.

It does seem like her kit would need a major rework to get her out of the jungle though as last hitting and keeping up or getting ahead in CS will be a lot harder on her than many other top lanes. But then maybe we are thinking about it wrong, could instead of top lane use her as a cc based support? Either way you are right about the damage Arctic, while she is not expected to be a carry she does need some potential to at least get the money she needs to be effective.

Edit: Forgot to mention the idea for the w to be a toggle with extra armor / MR was there for mitigation factor in a reflect and or using her passive to proc from getting hit while it is up would give her some built in mitigation for survivability during teamfights. Could use her q or r to initiate after hitting w to turn on the toggle and reduce damage she takes and make her damage output say on an ad carry higher from reflect. Initiation with her ult would also leave the coward button intact for people like Raviane who may still wish to play her that way.