An assesment of new TT map with Sam, I want YOUR feedback

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slamor

Senior Member

10-28-2012

I watched both videos. I honestly only say two distinct problems with the old TT, turtling and the dragon.

First I gotta ask, why did Sam jungle on the old TT or his 2K elo opponents. He kept mentioning having a jungler on the old TT. It is not like you could pick smite with only three champs and still do well in team fights or do too well in lane.I usually see someone like leesin go top and just loot the jungle when there is no reason to be in lane, like darius is at his turret and leesin has his wriggles. Thats a free buff picked up without losing out on anything, and maybe a small camp.

Gotta say I love how vilemaw is a a lot harder to kill now. The dragon on the old TT was broken. It dies very very fast and was worth way too much. Surely 285 gold each and 18% damage increase does not need that much effort to get. Gotta say though that vilemaw could be a little bit more tankier and have a little less damage since without wards, you do not want teams stealing it before the enemy got a chance to notice it but that only happens late game.

Turtling being fixed is a great improvement. No comment here.

I do not like the alter mechanics honestly. In order to make getting both alters unbalanced or give a large disadvantage to the enemy team, they should give vision while held. I would like to see one alter gives vision of vilemaw giving a huge incentive to hold onto the alters. Holding two alters would give vision of just the speed shrine and vilemaw.. No vision outside the speed shrine so it is still possible to remain concealed.. So getting both alters would give a team a window of oppurtunity to get a good teamfight or snag vilemaw and I can not imagine this having any type of snowballing effect or mean bad news for the enemy team. This also prevents teams that naturraly have a strong level 1 team comp, like when my team had to fight darius, leesin, and zyra. Had to literally just let them have both alters and not contest and I did not like that.

I just want riot to redo the alters and tweak vilemaw. Otherwise they have done a great job at remaking TT.


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Exqzr

Senior Member

10-28-2012

You're dumb for saying I'm dumb.

OMG! I think we were both just infected by the new TT map and it's tendency to cause ADD.

SORRY!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodhi View Post
Why do you think typing every fifth word in all caps makes your point seem any more intelligent? It looks really dumb and most of the points you made were dumb. You should feel bad for posting this.


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Brodhi

Senior Member

10-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by slamor View Post


I do not like the alter mechanics honestly. In order to make getting both alters unbalanced or give a large disadvantage to the enemy team, they should give vision while held.

I just want riot to redo the alters and tweak vilemaw. Otherwise they have done a great job at remaking TT.
Unclaimed altars give both teams vision of the altar and a little area around it (not the brush), and teams that control altars have exclusive vision of that altar and the same tiny area around it. Managing to take the opponent's altar is insanely strong because more often than not you can see when their jungler is doing wolves or double golems, or when the enemy team is moving from tower to tower.

The altars have 80 global gold as well as 4 extra gold per minion kill as well as the potential to give +10% AP/AD that stacks with similar effects (such as Wiglet's Witchcap) rather than be added multiplicity. Vilemaw is good where he is. Most teams cannot do him before level 13-14 unless they have something like 2 Grez's or a Fiora with Grez's + Sanguine Blade.

I like the map in its current state a helluva lot more than old TT ever was.


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slamor

Senior Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodhi View Post
Unclaimed altars give both teams vision of the altar and a little area around it (not the brush), and teams that control altars have exclusive vision of that altar and the same tiny area around it. Managing to take the opponent's altar is insanely strong because more often than not you can see when their jungler is doing wolves or double golems, or when the enemy team is moving from tower to tower.

The altars have 80 global gold as well as 4 extra gold per minion kill as well as the potential to give +10% AP/AD that stacks with similar effects (such as Wiglet's Witchcap) rather than be added multiplicity. Vilemaw is good where he is. Most teams cannot do him before level 13-14 unless they have something like 2 Grez's or a Fiora with Grez's + Sanguine Blade.

I like the map in its current state a helluva lot more than old TT ever was.
I meant strip the alters of all buffs and make it solely that one alter gives vision of vilemaw only. Two alters gives vision of vilemaw and speed shrine only. Probably keep the 80 gold on capture as that just simply sinks gold into the map speeding up gameplay.


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HayabusaZero

Senior Member

10-29-2012

The problem with the current QQ for new TT is that Riot won't hear us if we can´t express ourself with clarity and respect. I have play both maps, and i think that the new TT is good, but needs some tweaks around some of its mechanics.

The altars should be nerfed (reduce the AD/AP bonus, and be locked until 4-5 min into the game for first capture), tweaked to give a different buff if you got both, or simply removed. They are too powerful in early game and helps greatly the team who has snowballed harder.

Vilemaw is fine the way he is. No complains there.

The speed boost, even if i'm not a great fan, people like it, so if fine by me.

We need more item diversity to make every role more viable on the map. I believe AD carries have very few mid cost items, and Bruisers have a lot to choice from. AP carries have nice new items. I think this issue will be solve ones we get Season 3 items.

Well, that's my feedback. I'm not a high elo player or anything, but everyones constructive opinion should be listened to make the map a better experience for all of us.


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OnlyBotLane

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Senior Member

10-29-2012

Okay so said to Sam in 3v3 chat that I would make a constructive post, so I did but it is really long. Sorry!
Also this may not count as concise but oh well mods ban me or w/e

I think that the new map is a lot of fun. I really like the pace of the game, the new asthetics and I quite like that it is a change of playstyle from the old one. However I do not think that it is an improvement from the old one but a new map altogether and I do think that in trying to fix some things that were problems on th old map they have made some new problems and made some old ones worse.

I also think they put it on live too early only because of halloween. This patch apparently had huge problems with lag and other performance issues along with no balance changes being made before it was released. Makes me think that no matter the quality of the map it was always going to be released before halloween. I also think messing with ladder before lockout for the season is a bit nuts but anyway thats just a small gripe and really has nothing to do with the map.

First thing I want to talk about on the new map is that it feels very snowbally. In all the games I've played I have only had 2 close ones and of those 1 was because the other team hadn't really figured out how to play the map yet and didn't push their early game advantage at all so it allowed for a comeback. Every other game I have had 1 team has taken control of the jungle at level 1 with a stronger level 1 teamfight or by ambushing, gotten a kill or two or even an ace and taken both shrines and after that the team who got the level 1 advantage just farmed the enemy jungle instead of their own all game and controlled both shrines the most of the time. Taking 1 3rd of the cs from the other team and getting so much extra gold per minion kill really leaves no chance for the team that is behind to get back in the game, especially when turtling is almost impossible unless you went for some crazy urgot, blitz comp lolol.

I think there are a few reasons why this happens:
1. The altars unlock too early. Because the altars unlock so soon it really favors teams with a level 1 teamfight. Teams with a good level 1 teamfight are also usually really good early game champs who can easily push an advantage. This means that a team who can take the altars level 1 can also usually out farm the other team or get kills in lane/from ganks which makes it really easy to keep a snowball going.

2. The benefit of holding both altars is too great. It really locks out the other team from coming back if they relinquished it early. 4 gold per minion more is a lot what can I say not to mention that extra 160 global gold for capturing both altars and the 10% AD/AP bonus you get which will help you crush early in lane.

3. You can walk straight to the other teams camps from the lane. Really easy to do if your team is ahead and pushing hard. Especially if they lost their outer towers.

Because of these reasons I haven't lost a game where my team was ahead in the beginning and looking for advantageous level 1 fights has meant that I've only lost 3 games so far 2 on Live and 1 on PBE (not that I am bragging, skill levels on PBE are very low and i didn't play that many games on there, just wanted to say from experience that it works.)

The second problem I have with this map is that Tanky DPS are even stronger on this map than on the old TT.

Reasons for this:
1. The new items favor bruisers more than they favour any other character class. The new AP items are okay however the new AD items are far stronger and usually have some tank element to them as well as some kind of DPS. I know that Riot removed wriggles because it was op on tanks, same as warmogs and ga (though ga was op on everyone ) but some of the new items are far more OP than wriggles ever was.

The items that I think are most problematic are: Lord Van Dams Pillager and Blade of the Ruined King. Just so good! I know that AP got a % damage item but even that favours ap bruisers more than it favours ap carries. Also 15% damage is not that much when you can steal that much of them in a few seconds.

2. The Altars aren't interruptable except by standing on them.
Don't really need to explain this one. If you have to stand right next to someone it pays to be tanky. It would be nice if AAing the other team interrupted capping for a short period.

3. It is far easier to gank lanes on the new map.
Because of the new layout with more paths going to lane from the back of the lanes and removal of wards ganking is easier than ever. For the same reason that Tanky DPS champs go top on summoners rift they also excell here. The lanes are long from the towers and it is easier to escape a gank if you are tanky and have dashes/escapes.

4. Junglers are required on this map. IMO this is the biggest reason why tanky DPS are better than ever on this map. Junglers are required because gold gains from the minions in the middle are really high, they spawn often and they give quite a large amount of gold. It also makes controlling your altars easier but that isn't really the biggest reason why as lanes could probably keep control of their own altar anwyay.

There are 2 reasons why required jungling makes tanky dps better.
i. Most of the faster/better junglers are AD tanky DPS champions with some exceptions.
ii. Requiring people to jungle means that AD carry/Support lanes are impossible. Whereas on the old map lanes like Ezreal/Nunu lanes (or other similar aggressive duos) could do quite well against teams that had a jungler now if you attempt it you waste too much gold because the creeps spawn so fast and give so much.

And the last problem I think I have with the map is that they removed a lot of the strategy from the old one.
On the new layout the middle is completely open from purple to blue altar which makes breaking vision quite difficult if you are running. This makes jukes happen less frequently, with exception to champs like shaco lol. And because the map is shrunk down ambushes are much more difficult because you always know where the other team is. If a person is missing form lane there is no ambiguity to it. On the old TT maybe they were top taking jungle, maybe they were sneaking dragon or maybe they are setting up a gank. Now the only place they can be is mid .

The new walls also remove cool aggressive flash ambushes which were always lots of fun. I have lots of great memories of waiting next to wraiths with my team baiting the other team into starting a teamfight and then flashing through the wall and unleashing my Malphite/Morgana/Kennen ult on them and cleaning up. Or chasing down a group of 3 enemies and trapping them outside their base only for them to flash the wall next to the nexus and then them dying anyway because we all flashed after them and killed them in their base. Now all the walls are too thick for that kind of play and flash doesn't go over most of them. (this issue you can have an opinion either way but I just found myself using flash more aggressively than defensively.

Also removing wards removed a lot of layers of play. Before a team who knew the map better and knew where to be a what objective to do and also kept tabs on the other team while doing it could win against a team who was better mechanically. I could win with teams that were 1200 elo as long as they listened to me and my highest team right now is only made up of friends of mine who are around 1200 Elo level on SR. Whereas a lot of the time I would play 5 ranked games with people who were 1700 and they would just throw the game by not knowing where to be and not understanding the flow of the map. It feels to me now that instead of using strategy and understanding to win it is mostly the team who teamfights better wins. (Again this one is just what I liked about the map and is negative or positive. Perhaps you like the new faster play more and that is fine too :])

Although I have a lot of problems with this new map I do think it is great fun and I have high hopes for it. What is good about lots of the new problems Riot created with this new map is that most of them are number based and can be tweaked and changed whereas many of the problems with the old map were completely built in to the layout and you couldn't change them without making drastic changes. Just my 2 cents.


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NismoDOMA

Junior Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnlyBotLane View Post
First thing I want to talk about on the new map is that it feels very snowbally. In all the games I've played I have only had 2 close ones and of those 1 was because the other team hadn't really figured out how to play the map yet and didn't push their early game advantage at all so it allowed for a comeback. Every other game I have had 1 team has taken control of the jungle at level 1 with a stronger level 1 teamfight or by ambushing, gotten a kill or two or even an ace and taken both shrines and after that the team who got the level 1 advantage just farmed the enemy jungle instead of their own all game and controlled both shrines the most of the time. Taking 1 3rd of the cs from the other team and getting so much extra gold per minion kill really leaves no chance for the team that is behind to get back in the game, especially when turtling is almost impossible unless you went for some crazy urgot, blitz comp lolol.
I do agree, it seems reasonable for the altars to be opened minutes after the game has started (5-7 min range imo seems fair). However, my only reservation about this is that is just the mechanics of the map making it a problem or is it the people just playing bad? Of course it’s a balance of both to me, I mean there has to be a longer delay in the altars opening up but would this situation different if people understood the map better? Just fruit for thought because when I discussed it with Sam on and off camera when we made the video, some of the problems are due to the fact that the map is just so new and offers different mechanics. But I also understand this is why people don’t like it because the different mechanics turned from improvements to a removal from the old tt for some people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnlyBotLane View Post
2. The Altars aren't interruptable except by standing on them. Don't really need to explain this one. If you have to stand right next to someone it pays to be tanky. It would be nice if AAing the other team interrupted capping for a short period.
Certainly a bad tradeoff, but what could alternatives of interrupting would be feasible for the defending team? I mean, if u let them poke and interrupt the capture (say a jayce E + Q) then a team with a strong poking ability can just poke people down from a distance without laying a foot onto the altar. Would maybe a reduction in defensive stat when they stand on the altar be a good idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnlyBotLane View Post
3. It is far easier to gank lanes on the new map. Because of the new layout with more paths going to lane from the back of the lanes and removal of wards ganking is easier than ever. For the same reason that Tanky DPS champs go top on summoners rift they also excell here. The lanes are long from the towers and it is easier to escape a gank if you are tanky and have dashes/escapes.
Also removing wards removed a lot of layers of play. Before a team who knew the map better and knew where to be a what objective to do and also kept tabs on the other team while doing it could win against a team who was better mechanically… It feels to me now that instead of using strategy and understanding to win it is mostly the team who teamfights better wins.
I believe you just pointed out the tradeoffs no wards bring to early and late game. Early game, it is easier for a jungler to gank. You can’t realize your getting ganked until someone like shaco just wtf poofed you and u are just running for your life. But at the same time late game it dosen’t add to the element of surprise because well. where else could they be? Vilemaw is certainly a possible answer, but not everybody (at least low elo players like me) goes ahead and kill it. You are right about that, and I hope riot has already taken note of this trade off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnlyBotLane View Post
The new walls also remove cool aggressive flash ambushes which were always lots of fun. I have lots of great memories of waiting next to wraiths with my team baiting the other team into starting a teamfight and then flashing through the wall and unleashing my Malphite/Morgana/Kennen ult on them and cleaning up ... Now all the walls are too thick for that kind of play and flash doesn't go over most of them. (this issue you can have an opinion either way but I just found myself using flash more aggressively than defensively.
The wall that’s next to the nexus is justified for being thick, I mean flashing through the wall and backdoor the nexus is truly a problem on old tt. Thank you for your feedback OnlyBotLane, don’t worry bout the length, pretty concise and a good read when I’m not paying attention to my history class lol


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Midnight Taco

Junior Member

10-29-2012

The new slightly improved but significantly less playable Twisted Treeline. Just my opinion.

THE GOOD
1.)This map looks fantastic, Visually striking, a huge step in the right direction. If they had just straight swapped the graphics I would be one happy TT solider.

2.)I like the new base design. I like you can not pull the minions into the laser of death. I like how you can not flash in to the enemy base, but....( * see THE BAD)

3.)I like the new items.

4.)Spider Queen is cool. And not just visually either. I like how she hurts your whole team and not just the tank makes for fun fights and white knuckle get aways if you take her on to early and the enemy shows up and the right time.

5.)I like how the jungle is more jungle-able? It seemed like only a handful of champs possessed the ability to jungle the OLD TT at a high enough standard. And I like the jungle being in the middle. Makes way more sense so he can pop out either top or bottom just as quickly and effective.

THE BAD
1.)I don't like the lack of brush and walls that littered the Original TT. There were so many clusters of brush and walls that made juking really memorable. Man I have some great stories of epic jukes. Let me just say if my champion had ankles they would have been broken.

2.)The jungle feels cramped, has no “flow”, has no safety. Feels awkward and unfriendly.
I cant explain it any better it just doesn't have that “jungle” feel.

3.)I don't like that champions with mini flashes don't have as many places to use them. *I liked being able to slip right on out into my jungle from my base* . I understand the need to make it more viable to other champs but man that was part of the charm from the Original TT was the escaping of bad situations. Could of left us a little more places to use them. And they may of made the jungle “feel” I little better.

4.)I don't like that some of the items are not available that's just B.S. Its starting to feel like you have taken more away than you have given. Originals TT item selection was just fine the way it was. I think it just needed more “more bang for you buck” items.

5.) I dont care for the speed boost. It feels forced and clumsy. the map is so small and the time it takes to get from lane to lane is minimal and it wheres off so fast it serves no purpose imo

THE UGLY
1.)Vision wards TAKEN away from TT are you fricking kidding me? I'd like to know who's bright idea that was and pay him a visit. And ask him what kind of crack he was smoking, cheese and rice WTF. Lets just kill off a whole part of TT in one swift rash decision. Would you ever take away wards from Summoners Rift? Hell no you wouldn't. And why wouldn't you do it? Because it would ruin it that's why. It would make it something its not. The guy who made that call needs to be drug tested ASAP. He is a danger to himself and your company.

2.)Capture Points!? In Twisted Treeline?! god damn you guys are giving me a fricking heart attack. Did u guys sub contract the development of TT out to a team of monkeys? Where were all the guys that keep people from making stupid decisions. Why? TT did not need any objectives to fight over. The whole TT match was about team fights why did you feel compelled to add a place to fight over. It wasn't needed if it isn't broke don't fix it. Capture points belong in dominion that's all that needs to be remembered from this. I'm starting to feel like someone is sabotaging riot from the inside.



That's all I have for now I want to play TT so bad buts it not the TT I remember its some kind of monstrosity, some deformed love child of dominion and the Original TT. It has no soul.


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slamor

Senior Member

10-29-2012

Yeah just lock the alters till like 5 minutes. I dreaded the games where the enemy had a much stronger level 1 team. Having to stand on an alter to interrupt alter capture does favor tanky junglers. The new TT, bruisers and tanks still dominate when your required to get into the enemies face to stop captures. Only game I have won where the enemy did get first blood or both alters tight away was my team had brand and all 3 enemy champs stood on an alter. Brand sure stopped that capture.


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Midnight Taco

Junior Member

10-29-2012

I'm getting sick and tired of this lame excuse of splitting the player pool. maybe in the early days it was true but with braggingn rights like these

32,000,000 people who have signed up.

11,500,000 monthly players.

4,200,000 daily players and

1,300,000 playing at the same time

this excuse is dead in the water. and i still think having multiple maps per game type is a good thing. i whish there were 4-5 maps per game type (Dom SR and TT) and before the match they are voted on with the highest voted map getting played. hell they could just be re colors. Variety is the spice of life.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/c...illion-players