Constructive Criticism

First Riot Post
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PrinceVert

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTwinkles View Post
This is not necessarily true. Not once have I been in a queue on the old TT and waited long than a minute. Take the math into consideration. Even if it was only 1% of the 32 million monthly players, that's a 320,000 player base which is even greater than the sales of some online games. Even if that was cut in half there would still be enough players to make matches with.

To your second point this new map *IS* riot's current method of improving on the old map. Again this is just a beta test. For all we know they could just scrap this map and make slight map changes to the old TT.
One man can dream huh


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PrinceVert

Senior Member

10-25-2012

I feel like Riot missed completely the point and objective of old TT:

It was a condensed, shorter Summoners Rift It was all about how to lane, when and how much to push, map control with wards, know when to go for Drag, how to countergank etc etc.

For that reason old TT was on the CLASSIC SECTION.

TT had it's flaws and fans have been addressing that flaws YEARS ago but no one from Riot listened, the forum was practically dead.

Fans had ben asking for little things like:

Change the desing of the fountain to:
a) Stop turtling
b) Stop the backdooring

Add a draft pick for normals because some champs are OP in this map but hey we can't ask to balance them around this map right?

No one asked about a completely overhaul and deletion about the old map.

Riot you just had to listen to us that's all.


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Chaos of Exodia

Junior Member

10-25-2012

Alright, I'm going to take a shot at my opinion constructively.


These are the things that I think could be re-considered or looked upon...


1: The Twisted Treeline BETA map is too small. I don't necessarily think this could be improved by enlarging it, but placing more routes of escape. At current, there is only 1 real pathway through the center of the map, and this makes it very hard for your normal ranged mega-kiters to be able to weave their way out of a sticky situation... even if skilled.

2: On top of point 1, I think with the improvement of jungle routes and more routes to use, wards should be put back into the map. For champions like Lee Sin, Katarina and Jax, they all use wards strategically for planned escapes in the event that things don't go their way. This takes their competitiveness down and makes them less viable picks unless your other 2 teammates take bruisers to remove some of the target from yourself.

3: The new item "Blackfire Torch" is way too strong, and is giving champions like Brand and Singed a complete advantage 1v1 and team fight wise without having to build much more damage on top, meaning they can counter much more effectively and in turn, dominate the game. Instead, I think the damage could be scaled on ability power to a very low level, rather than a flat 5%. Stacked with Brand's passive and this item, Brand's skills now deal 7% flat max health every time they hit an enemy. Way too much.

4: In addition to more routes, the jungling process in the Twisted Treeline could be improved by adding more camps, and perhaps even Red buff back. This can still initiate those really early and intense jungle fights, and give an upper hand to the successful bruiser or AD champion.




These are just some of the things I personally think could be improved. I hope that's constructive enough


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ZeroV0

Member

10-25-2012

I just played a few games on the new TT and my biggest problem with it is that It feels and plays very similar to ARAMs most of my time is spent trying to get into a team fight and get kills because if we split to lane then someone will get jumped and then we don't engage on our teams terms. so my games so far can be easily summarized as playing an ARAMs. I also like the pacing of the old TT it was faster then SR but not crazy fast like the new TT I think its too hectic and adds to the you just end up playing an ARAM because of the speed of gameplay. also the whole teemo issue i think is something that needs to be looked at. otherwise i like the alters i like the new spider. I miss the old jungle buffs but that is a minor complaint of mine.


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Gabe2

Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTwinkles View Post
First off I would like to say some of what you said is true, but at the same time a bit exaggerated. Yes I would say that snowballing is more intense in this map than other others, but take a few points here into consideration.

1. If a team is allowed to consistently get all of the alters all the time, then to put it quite simply, the team is getting outplayed.

2. While that extra 4 gold per kill may seem a little unbalanced, most of the time each team has the alter that's closest to their base meaning that each team is getting this buff most of the time.

3. Even if a team has both alters, with these team fights that happening "every 5 seconds" how is a team supposed to take advantage of this extra gold buff?

4. Jungle creeps need to be week due to the possible invade from the other lanes. With the jungler being able to be ganked from both sides puts a lot of pressure on the jungler who needs to stay at high health to not be consistently shut down

5. These jungle creeps need to respawn often due to the small size of the jungle, and with the fact that it could potentially be inhabited by 2 junglers.

6. "...honestly are not placed in a manner that causes you to have to choose between being in a potential teamfight and getting more gold." - please elaborate

7. "Everyone gets gold out the ass so champs that can do well with no items (and therefore don't do much with their first 825 gold) are hampered at their primary time in the game" - What champ benefits from not having items?

8. "many of them build out of gp/10 items. On a map with gameplay so short, and with cs being so much more powerful, gp/10 is useless. " - Many of the gp10 items are not only good for their passive. Take philo stone for example. In SR with most of the junglers I play philo gives enough m/5 where I don't need blue buff anymore. It also lets me go through the jungle without having to get health pots.

9. "Another issue is that many of them are late-game items, price-wise or built-out-of-wise (Such as the ones building from gp/10. It costs you money long-term to finish those early.)" - So what's your solution take out all of the late game items and replace them with mid-tier items? EDIT: Also I thought we got gold out of our ass?

10. "only the winning team can afford the new items geared towards making the map playable by anyone." - Implying that this doesn't happen in every map mode. When have you played a game of summoner's rift where an adc got an infinity edge/trinity force by 14 minutes and there was an easy turn around? If it was easy to turn games around then every match would just be a 2 hour showdown


One thing I do agree with here is that the alters should not be the focus of the game. Hold off the initial unlock for about 7-10 minutes to allow for a laning phase. Or make the alters scale according to time. ex. at the start of the game make the damage buffs 5% instead of 10 and have it go upto about 15% for long lasting games (30+ minutes)
1) yes, but in every other map, an outplayed team is not a doomed team in every single circumstance. In this map, you can secure both of the shrines simply by csing better. That +4 gold is HUGE.

2) Ideally, yes, but that's not how it plays out. All you need is to win the obligitory level 1 fight to get their shrine. Then you CS as well as them, and you are stronger. Strong enough to beat them up in a teamfight. The teamfight that will happen on their shrine.

3) I did not say that teamfights are happening every 5 seconds, nor did i mean to imply it. I am sorry if it read that way. I was trying to say that you can get to anywhere a teamfight may happen in 5 seconds from anywhere in your jungle. This means that there is no disadvantage to keep farming up in the jungle, because you will be able to still go to any fight that breaks out. In other maps, the jungle is far enough out of the way that if you were to go get a camp or two right before a teamfight, you'd effectively be out of that fight. This means that the jungle has less to consider in this game, assuming that the game develops enough to actually have the jungler do more than die repeatedly to the fed guy guarding the shrine.

4) Yeah, in the current setup. But i'm saying that the current setup is dissapointing. Jungling is too easy, you just walk in a triangle and hope your buddies can hold the lane. There's nothing you can do to affect anything. There's no ganks. The frequency of games that are not so one-sided that the jungler reaches 6 before the winning team's at 12 is astonishingly low. And if the jungler is on the winning team, there's no need for ganks when he could just as easily keep killing everything he sees. Yeah, the jungler gets ganked, but that's less a gank and more of a "you put the jungle exclusively in the only path to and from anywhere except the lane. Oh, wait, the lanes hardly matter to the gameplay here."

5) If you wanted to force gameplay with 2 junglers with a jungle this small, sure. But it's not a good thing to make it possible to be in a certain triangle the entire game. In the Summoner's Rift jungle, you have to think what order to get the creeps to keep your farm up and still have ganking potential, when to invade, etc. Here you are always near a gank, the gank would do very little, and honestly, they don't need a ward to know where you are. Nobody stands anywhere near the jungle unless they are baiting or trying to go in it.

6) as i stated in number 3, there is very little penalty to clearing a jungle camp for money and exp when there are signs of a teamfight brewing. In the other maps, and the old one, if you went to jungle right before a fight you'd be nowhere near the fight and your team would be disadvantaged. Honestly, i don't see why you felt the need to make the map a fourth of the size. was it to weaken blinkers? Because they can still get away from everything ever from sheer speed and so little distance to chase them. Unless, of course, they are 6k gold behind at 10 min in.

7) That was poorly worded. I'm sorry. I mean, for example, Singed would normally be a force to be reckoned with every single time fairly early, because as soon as he gets RoA and Boots he is set for quite a while. However, everybody on the winning team gets lots of gold, while the losing team gets not very much at all. This means that, either Signed is killing everything he meets (which isn't very much assuming an ADC on Singed's team), or he feels useless because he got his tier two boots and RoA approxamently 3 min before the game is over.

8) Gp/10 DOES have other uses than money. However, those uses are weaker than the standard for other items when compared to gold cost, because it gives you gold back. This is something that doesn't happen to any of the other items. In your example, sure, a philly stone does give much-needed sustain. On Summoner's rift. The pace on this map is too fast for the hp regen to be of much help for the jungle. The minion camps are too close together to give him time to regen (and they are weak enough so he shouldn't need to anyway) and a champion probably is willing to do 15 more damage per 5 seconds the fight lasts. As for mana sustain, mana-hungry junglers could just as easily get a Chalice of Harmony (only 90 gold more) for much greater mana sustain, as well as a bit of tankiness and the ability to build it into Athene's if they have any AP component at all.
Why would you want to spend money on items when one of their major effects doesn't help you, and there are alternatives?
On the flipside, if there isn't any item that does what you want, why not? Why should you be forced to pay for effects you can't use?

9) No, it is not. I am merely stating that it seems a bit odd for late game items to be added specifically to a map with the purpose of shortening the playtime. I also recognize that not all of the added items are late-game items.
Also, only the winning team gets gold out the ass, meaning the winners get to try out the late-game items uncontested.

10)I don't want EASY turn arounds. I want POSSIBLE turn arounds. I want a map that doesn't encourage gold leads of the thousands before everyone gets their ultimate. And that wasn't what i was calling it out on in the first place.
My point was that many items were intended to make more champs viable require snowballing to buy in the first place. If i NEED (not want- need. This is much more severe than losing blue on summoner's rift) to be able to win the level 1 fight to be able to get gold, how does items that help my character stay viable do anything? I can't get those, i lost the level 1 fight. By the time i get to lane, they will be level 2 or 3, and earning more gold than i can ever catch up on.

11) Maybe. If you do something like that, it'd be a step in the right direction. I'd be happy for the people who enjoy the game, because they get to actually play. By then, the teams should be strong enough to make the shrines nice objectives, rather than absolute deciders.
(I'd probably still either become a 5's player or stop playing altogether, though.)

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my concerns. It means a lot.


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Gabe2

Member

10-26-2012

Bumping to ensure riot sees my clarification.