Meta- can we actually talk about it beyond champ picks?

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Ohhgrr

Member

10-25-2012

Wall of text.

I felt the need to try to get some positive discussion going, as I don't see much talk on how to play this map.

First: The map is not a deathmatch.
This is mostly because the map is new I take it, but just because the map is small doesn't mean you need to solo the entire enemy team at level 1. When there are 25+ kills per team before the timer is up (Which I see throughout this forum) either something is wrong with the map, or something is wrong with how its played.

Ok, now for hopefully some constructive talk.
Some of this is theorycraft and some of this is my experience so far. (after both pbe and live play).

Early game:
As a jungler, so far my goal is to -protect- my lanes first, and gank second. It's safer and more reliable to wait for an opponent to make a mistake (in this case the jungler over extending for a gank), and counter ganking, than actually ganking yourself. Staying nearish your altar pretty much prevents any access through mid for the opponents jungler, and you end up acting as a kind of sudo-ward. This changes somewhat once you get get ward items (a must, I believe)

Mid game:
Once your team generally has 1-2 ward items, keeping mid warded makes safe farming generally easy. At this point, ganking top through vilemaw path becomes a pretty good option, as your bottom can be relatively safe with middle warded (I believe this is why they added the ms buff, its almost too safe).

End game:
Once a lead has been established, going as a team to capture altars, vilemaw, and then push towers pretty much like the old 3s.

Now, this is all fine and dandy except for one problem: what if the enemy team is better early game, just groups up and takes your altar?

Altar fights:
In most of my games so far, people flock to the altars like suicidal moths. This is mostly because I haven't played with a pre-made, but also because of how strong the altars are. My general thought is just.. Let them take it? The farm and levels you lose out on for repeatedly having to group up to take a second altar does not seem worth it early on. Unfortunately I have not been able to experiment much with this because of the aforementioned moth teammates.


Play, experiment, theorycraft, discuss.


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Boagster

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Altar Fights
I feel that taking and holding one altar is far more important than taking a second. I would not force a fight at the second altar if you can avoid it. I find most teams (that I've seen so far) attack altars unevenly (ie: one person shows up earlier than the others), which, if you counterattack effectively, will give you the advantage in the fight, which should open up grabbing the second altar uncontested.

The opposite option is to try and take your opponents altar at level 1. If they don't try to take their altar with all three, it's an easy fight. If they do show up with all three and you lose, then you set yourself at a terrible early disadvantage. Calculated risk - if you have the stronger level 1 team, then go for it. Otherwise, I'd hold off, as I'm a fan of marginalizing losses.

Team Comp
I hate to say it, but I feel every team should have some sort of built-in sight feature. Be it Ashe's Hawkshot, the cliché Teemo Shroom, or Nidalee's traps - a built-in ward feature saves your team money by not having to itemize as heavily for vision and usually gives you more readily available sight. Clairvoyance may work, also, but the longer CD then the other options needs to be weighed.

Random, not-thought-out theorycrafting thought: 1 Top / 1 Bot / 1 Jungle. Top should be a bruiser or fast-escape AP champ, bottom an AD bruiser, and jungle a fast spike-damage-dealer (I want to use assassin here, but I don't want to fix it to just your typical assassins). Obviously, top and bot can swap. The idea is that your lanes should be able to survive long enough to get a reaction from your jungler. I'm thinking something similar to Nidalee Top / Rammus Bot / Eve Jungle or Rumble Top / Taric Bot / Shaco Jungle.


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ProbablyTerribad

Senior Member

10-25-2012

It just seems that it is pointless to discuss a metagame for a map that is barely playable as it is. This update has done nothing but make the champions that they complained were too powerful even more ridiculous, so why are we going to change what we were doing before at all? What incentive is there for me to pick someone that isn't Mundo/Riven/Jax/Fiora/Darius?

But if you want to talk strategy, okay, lets talk strategy.

Jungling is even worse in this new incantation of Treeline than in the old one. There are a couple reasons for this, the most important being that lane presence at bottom lane is about ten times more important now. You can't send someone like Mordekaiser bottom to 2v1 anymore, because he is so severely outclassed now that it is ridiculous. Before, in a 2v1 lane, his starting gold may have been doubled by the presence of two players, but that margin was a lot smaller because the item difference was a lot more manageable. Usually it was just boots/pots on everyone, so the impact wasn't even noticeable. Now, people are stacking a bunch of Doran's Blades and getting aggressive, and the only way to fight against that is to sit on your turret and eventually lose it. So jungling isn't viable, because you can't have a lane presence while clearing the jungle, even WITH the map being significantly smaller. Yes the jungler will make more gold, but the team as a whole is going to lose out on a lot more of it simply because their bottom lane player is now helpless to farm for themselves.

Early game, assuming you don't have a jungler, is all about sitting around waiting for your objective to unlock, and then what? The meta didn't change much in this regard, at least as far as I can tell in the games I've played. Top players sit at top and they try and bully eachother out of the lane while the bottom lane tries to farm without getting harassed, waiting for ganks at 6. This isn't new at all, and is basically what Twisted Treeline games came down to before this update. The starting gold difference has made it slightly easier for some champions to farm, but it has also made a few of the other ones entirely too good at harassing and being generally obnoxious in lane. Poke champions make it much more miserable than before.

As for altar fights, they don't even seem worth it. The buff isn't significant enough that it cannot be fought through, as displayed by the last handful of games we've played. Usually we would just ignore them, or use the fact that people would cap them alone to our advantage. Sure fighting an uphill battle against the double-altar buff is irritating, but it isn't undoable, and if you're going to risk your neck to capture both objectives, the reward should be better.


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Ohhgrr

Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProbablyTerribad View Post
"all that"
I'm not sure how changing gold really effects a 2v1 lane, you could always have two dorans and rush someone like mordekaiser for kills. Maybe a ranged farmer is more necessary if it's become a big issue

But, if thats your cup of tea- Assuming they are pushing your bottom (you mention jungle having to have an increased presence bot), that leaves their altar open and their top completely unprotected from wardless ganks. How do does that benefit bottom if they are hugging turret?


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Koadic

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Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProbablyTerribad View Post
It just seems that it is pointless to discuss a metagame for a map that is barely playable as it is. This update has done nothing but make the champions that they complained were too powerful even more ridiculous, so why are we going to change what we were doing before at all?
I'm quoting because I agree 100% with this statement; furthermore, because of the lack of wards and the lack of a safe-lane it makes the games very snowball in nature. The jungle camps being in the center of the map allows the enemy to get additional farm while still having presence on both lanes; whereas, in the old map you could punish the enemy for farming the top jungles.


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Ohhgrr

Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boagster View Post
Altar Fights
Team Comp
I hate to say it, but I feel every team should have some sort of built-in sight feature. Be it Ashe's Hawkshot, the cliché Teemo Shroom, or Nidalee's traps - a built-in ward feature saves your team money by not having to itemize as heavily for vision and usually gives you more readily available sight. Clairvoyance may work, also, but the longer CD then the other options needs to be weighed.
I think the new ward item is actually a pretty great item regardless, but totally agree with it not being necessary if you have other means.


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ProbablyTerribad

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrebait View Post
I'm not sure how changing gold really effects a 2v1 lane, you could always have two dorans and rush someone like mordekaiser for kills. Maybe a ranged farmer is more necessary if it's become a big issue

But, if thats your cup of tea- Assuming they are pushing your bottom (you mention jungle having to have an increased presence bot), that leaves their altar open and their top completely unprotected from wardless ganks. How do does that benefit bottom if they are hugging turret?
Changing starting gold effects a 2v1 greatly because it basically puts the other team an entire item ahead of you. When this advantage was only a pair of boots and some potions, it was actually something you could incrementally deal with via superior level gains. But now you are dealing with extra damage output and likely more regeneration in the lane right out of the gate. The odds are weighed much more against you.

If you are hugging your turret in a 2v1 lane, your jungle is also in great peril, because at any time those guys that pushed you into the turret are now able to simply turn their attention upwards and come hunt you. Due to having far fewer avenues of escape and less opportunities to juke, it is likely your jungler dies if you are not trying to actively push out your lane. And if you do push your lane out, you open yourself to top lane ganks. It is lose/lose. The only difference is which person are they going to try and kill.


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TheRandomJoe

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Member

10-25-2012

nocturne is a sexy champ in this, starting off with an invasion of their altar/camping bushes waiting for them to facecheck, if not just jungle the camps and jump back and forth between lanes. Depending if we have a true tank I can go full on dps, otherwise I compensate attkspeed/dmgfor armor items like Frozen mallet and randuin.

Although I highly suggest just going full dps with lifesteal since the items like king's blade helps immensly as well as the armor and health reduction items