Spectre, the Phantom Assassin

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Drake O Dagger

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Your statement doesn't tell me WHY you think it is OP or UP though. That makes it much harder to try and fix it. You don't even give suggestions on ideas to fix it. How am I suppose to improve if all you tell me is something is wrong?


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ObscureClockwork

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake O Dagger View Post
I shall direct you here.

Then I shall point out why I disagree with everything stated here.

First off, why should the range be 125? That makes the least sense of your statements to me, so I'm not going to go further than asking why you think I should increase the range to the highest melee attack range possible.

The rest of this post I can sum up very simply: saying something is OP without explaining WHY, or providing a similar effect that you feel accomplishes the same core intent but isn't broken, is USELESS! All it really does is irritate people, and provides no real useful feedback. I don't even understand wtf you mean by "plus can freeze lanes". A Crit on Q would just deal 300% damage (at max) rather than 200% (base damage added two times rather than three), and that's FAR from broken, especially with the way it works. The highest AD you can use as a base for that is Ancient Golem, and that won't get to higher than champion levels until half-way through the game, and requires possessing the golem and dealing with its incredibly slow MS.

W is OP... wtf? It's a shield. It's a WEAK shield at that.

E does **** for damage. It's overall a pathetic attack, unless you a) have ability power and/or b) possess something with half-way decent health, and even then, it's still slowly killing your possessed body. OP? Hell no -_-

If anything, most people I've talked to consider the Ult the most OP thing on here, but it's not so bad that they consider it broken. Yet you say everything BUT the Ult is OP? Either you're a troll, or you just didn't read the champion very well. Well, that or you don't know the game well enough to be reviewing champions.

/rant

Sorry for the mostly negative tone of that, but your review rather annoyed me. I'm going to end it here before I add any more length to this.
im gonna say this is what gives the impression of not taking criticism well

personally, i think he made the point on his Q critting pretty well.
you can infer it means the base damage criting is too much damage, well at least that is what it seems with your wording (because you know it says 200% damage instead of 100% of your total AD in damage. if you crit 200% damage, it becomes 400% damage. if you crit and the spell does 100% of your total ad in damage, you deal 300% damage.) he did also qualify his statement stating if the crit only applied to his AD (thus the 100% of your ad in bonus damage case), it would be fine.

i'd say he did provide rationale for why the passive is op. it can freeze lanes. other reasons why the passive isnt good would be the fact that it will be hard to code. while he didnt not state more than that, i could infer that its ability to freeze lanes effectively and the difficulty in implementing that into the game would both be reasons to change the passive.
further reasons i could cite would be, high health, then essentially a second life (you get your minion life *.25 on the possession, then you spawn again, and im assuming full health because you haven't stated otherwise)

W is probably op because of the knockback, and the actually rather good scaling on it. for comparison, it has same bonus health scaling as nautilus, on top of 10 more base and 15% of your possessed monster's health. to my understanding, he also gets 25% of his monster's health as bonus health too. and on top of this again, he gets an autoattack modifier
all this on 10 second cooldown.
also, in no way is an 800 health shield on a 10 second cooldown skill balanced, and currently with the 4072 health golem, the 25% of that transfered to bonus health (because by game logic your max health is 0 at that state), then the frozen mallet? that actually adds up to 782.6 extra on the shield, which adds up to 1072 shield.
even without the golem 25% added to your bonus health, the amount is still a total of 970 on the shield (which seems to be indefinite till you blow it up, you haven't stated otherwise)
yea, if i was designing a shield, a 1072 shield amount is nothing in my intentions. 970 is not what i'd expect either

E: i'd say its op. 265 + 1.0 ap? i would just build ap with lich bane. hp through roa + rylais + deathcap/lich bane provides pretty good health, heck, i could double roa just for the lulz.
5% of a golem possession in the above scenario with roa + rylais at max health = 100 damage, on 6 seconds cooldown. i'd take it.
with that i actually do 525 damage, with just 2 items and a golem possession, with 100 of that being true damage

oh, and concerning his 115 range and 61 starting AD, i actually agree with him
i'd rather you have 125 AA range or 100 AA range for consistency issues
and 61 AD is tied with the highest attack damage (with taric and maokai, both support-ish champions that use the high bases as they aren't expected to get items) you scaling is low enough that i say the AD is fine, but imo, balance out that curve more


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Drake O Dagger

Senior Member

11-02-2012

I still don't understand wtf either of you two mean by "freeze lanes". Ignoring that issue as I can't understand wtf you're talking about, I get the feeling you're GREATLY misunderstanding how possession is suppose to work.

When you possess something, you gain the traits as specified in the passive. When that body dies, you return to the way you were just before possessing them, so it acts more like an absorption shield that modifies all your states every time. But its treating the new health not as bonus health, but as your new base health.

I could keep commenting on the rest of this, but its becoming obvious this champion is a bust as everyone will keep telling me its OP, so I'm scrapping the idea. Which annoys me, considering how much work I already put into it. Oh well, guess I'll just wait another three months and hope a new idea comes along by then.


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KobaltKode

Senior Member

11-02-2012

You champion has a cool concept, but seems very much innately flawed in designed. I see you pushing this champion as a kind of jungle assassin...BUT he is squishy, AP and only does single target damage. His ganking/counter jungling strength could be amazing given his access and the uptime of his stealth. With full CDR, it is possible to have 100% uptime on his stealth. The ability to bypass regular wards and the control he would bring to lane with a possession might be too strong.

The down sides are several fold...His clear time would be abysmal. He is an AP jungler with 0 sustain and AoE. Only three monsters in the jungle scale with time, of the three one does not have scaling offense. Generally speaking, unless you are possessing Ancient Golem or Elder Lizard, most of the possesions are not worth your time [save maybe Giant Wolf if you have IE and invis proc, which is kinda broken]. Early on it is not that great to take the large buffs even though they are the best choice [if smite is still effective vs the mosters you posses, supports would take it to muddle your gank potential not to mention the enemy jungler...you could sustain 3 skills max early, if you went to gank immediately after possession]. If used to jungle their lack of durability would be dangerous...Not to mention that early jungle invades strongly hamper your champion's capabilities. Your shield is only a source of damage so long as you have a minion and only a couple of them would last more than a couple hits in the jungle [unless you chug pots or have early life steal]. His mana costs would also make him blue dependent in the jungle.

Jungle aside, his scaling incentives make little sense...The importance of Health, CDR and AP will place restrict his item choices [he will need armor and damage early]. This is true especially where the jungle is concerned, CDR gives him the best mix of survivability and offensive scaling. Outside of Kindle Gem/Blue reliance, he doesn't have a lot of early access to it and building in that direction yields no solid offensive benefits [no access to burst]. His kit seems torn between that of a tanky control jungle and a power gank assasin. These are basically 2 very different directions [since these scale seperately, his shield does not scale with offensive stats and vice versa].

I suggest doing one of either two things, rethink the choice of making him an AP jungler or rework his skills to accommodate it! For example, you could make Ecto-Blast splash some of it's damage when hitting a minion. Hell, the damage could even be increased by some % of that monster's max HP.

I would also cut down on his reliance on minions for utility, as they can be denied him. Instead, make possession simply enhance the abilities. I'd kill having the shield require a minion to deal bonus melee damage. Instead I would reduce the base scaling on the skill a little and give it a built in atma's effect based on the monster health [as magic damage]. You may also want to add a brief slow to your shield burst to, make it so that the effect can't backfire and push people to safety while chasing. I would also add a clause that prevents the shield from stacking with itself as this could be potentially too powerful when you consider CDR.

I would go into more specifics about possession as well. You make it sound as though possessing a monster does not kill it. This would be bad in the case that you possess a buff mob, as you would not gain the buff the monster grants until someone kills you and you get the credit [he will need blue early]. When the monster is killed does Spectre die? If not, what happens to his HP while he possesses the monster? Is it maintained at the number it was when possession takes place or does it regenerate over time [kinda broken with heavy shield uptime late game]? Is the monster he controls effected by smite?

It might be smart to replace the "stun" with a new effect, something like stasis to avoid confusion. When you write it as stun, my first question was "does that mean as an opposing jungle I can steal the monster during this time if he doesn't possess it?"


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KobaltKode

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake O Dagger View Post
Change Log

10/25
  • Added the restriction to Intangibility that you can only pass through 1 terrain per use.
11/2
  • Abandoned the champion due to the concept being broken according to several people.
Don't give up on it yet, it has potential on paper. Simply needs a few tweaks!


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Sallu786

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Senior Member

11-02-2012

not only is Spectre in dota phantom assassin is also


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Drake O Dagger

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KobaltKode View Post
Don't give up on it yet, it has potential on paper. Simply needs a few tweaks!
It may have potential on paper, but the core mechanic it was built around is apparently insanely problematic. I have no ideas how to fix it, and I'm just getting frustrated with it. That makes it much harder to really want to keep working on it. It was a random idea based off a spur-of-the-moment thought, and the core mechanic I built it all around just failed. That's kind of a mood-killer.


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Drake O Dagger

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sallu786 View Post
not only is Spectre in dota phantom assassin is also
Thank you for telling me my name has been used in another medium, though I'm sure its been used in 50 other mediums too. Can you comment on the actual champion?


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SephirothWontDie

Senior Member

02-10-2013

ooh, I like the sound of this already, but I should take a look.

passive: um.... this sounds like it would be a little frustrating to work with. what about last hitting minions? would you immediately switch out to the new minion or would you be stuck with that minions until its health is used up? I would love to see a possessing champion around, but again, this seems like it might be frustrating to work with.

q: the only thing I worry about here is the true damage. you already have a lot of damage on here, and building health seems like it would be the best way to get some damage, then theres the true damage.

w: I see nothing wrong, I only would think that you should have the passive be inactive while the ability itself is on cooldown.

e: its fine.

r: I imagine people walking outside the boundaries of the map, then either 1) being stuck on the opposite side or 2) being able to escape without a problem. and the damage part, I see that being a problem in that the amount done. it doesn't seem like a whole lot of magic damage on your next attack. maybe add a ratio for that part? the thing about remaining health damage, that's fine.

overall: its a neat concept that Id like to see in some day. give it a little more work and it will be an amazing concept.


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Drake O Dagger

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothWontDie View Post
ooh, I like the sound of this already, but I should take a look.

passive: um.... this sounds like it would be a little frustrating to work with. what about last hitting minions? would you immediately switch out to the new minion or would you be stuck with that minions until its health is used up? I would love to see a possessing champion around, but again, this seems like it might be frustrating to work with.

q: the only thing I worry about here is the true damage. you already have a lot of damage on here, and building health seems like it would be the best way to get some damage, then theres the true damage.

w: I see nothing wrong, I only would think that you should have the passive be inactive while the ability itself is on cooldown.

e: its fine.

r: I imagine people walking outside the boundaries of the map, then either 1) being stuck on the opposite side or 2) being able to escape without a problem. and the damage part, I see that being a problem in that the amount done. it doesn't seem like a whole lot of magic damage on your next attack. maybe add a ratio for that part? the thing about remaining health damage, that's fine.

overall: its a neat concept that Id like to see in some day. give it a little more work and it will be an amazing concept.
Thanks. The problem on Q is known to me, and I'm working on it. Not entirely sure what you meant about the passive, but Spectre has to actively attack a monster after it has been affected by Possession to possess it. So after the minion has been killed, he would need to attack it again.

I thought it was obvious the passive on W would be disabled, but I'll add it in since that's how its suppose to work.

As far as walking through the boundaries of the map, that's impossible. You've got nothing to go to, so you can't walk through those parts of the map. As for the damage being low, that's because of everything else the Ult does. The damage buff is intentionally minor, as they've already got the damage of Exploding the body on there.