Lord Van Damm's Pillager

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Akesgeroth

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Bumping because this is a good discussion. Though it would belong on item discussion. =/


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Done25

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akesgeroth View Post
That's a good point. But even then he'll mostly be wasting mana doing this and putting himself in harm's way. Let's switch Amumu for Leona for this hypothetical scenario. You go a bit forward to rake, you do it, and do a bit of damage. Then Leona extends her sword, stuns you with her shield and you're dead before her ult even lands on you. Poking power isn't what assassins should care about.

I do agree that giving them a better chance against tanks and tanky DPS was important, but the issue of getting to the enemy squishies unscathed in late game is still present.
Isn't the whole point of a tank to prevent people from reaching the squishes anyways? You're complaining that a counter is working properly. That's like saying there should be an easy way to stop Olaf from hitting R and walking up with his CC immunity + high MR and wrecking your mage's face.


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Kurø

Senior Member

10-25-2012

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Originally Posted by Akesgeroth View Post
True, but is that possible? The only time this situation seems like it could happen is during early game, against squishes. I don't foresee this happening in any other situation unless the champ gets fed.

Pardon the short answers, posting from my iPod.

That's kind of the point of assassins, to snowball. Which is why they're best in mid, kill your lane opponent/push the lane then roam to the outer lanes to kill them.


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Kurø

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Done25 View Post
Isn't the whole point of a tank to prevent people from reaching the squishes anyways? You're complaining that a counter is working properly. That's like saying there should be an easy way to stop Olaf from hitting R and walking up with his CC immunity + high MR and wrecking your mage's face.

there are 2 ways, one: shut him down early game so he's useless when you should be going for the win.

2: pray that you have higher movespeed and kite him til ult falls off and then just CC him. Or poke him before the engage.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Done25 View Post
Isn't the whole point of a tank to prevent people from reaching the squishes anyways? You're complaining that a counter is working properly. That's like saying there should be an easy way to stop Olaf from hitting R and walking up with his CC immunity + high MR and wrecking your mage's face.
When a tank should be able to safe the squishy one, the squishy one shouldn't be close enough to get hit and engaged on.
But when Talon stays at 900+ range and Cho stands at 700-800 range, Talon can't poke with his W.

It is not that this counter works, but that people use this situation where Talon is definitely in a disadvantage to justify the CDR and Spell vamp on him.

You are interpreting the whole statement the other way around without using the context of the whole thread.


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Done25

Senior Member

10-25-2012

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Originally Posted by Kur View Post
there are 2 ways, one: shut him down early game so he's useless when you should be going for the win.

2: pray that you have higher movespeed and kite him til ult falls off and then just CC him. Or poke him before the engage.
We're assuming that a 5v5 in mid lane w/no turrets is breaking out. The average team fight.


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Done25

Senior Member

10-25-2012

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Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
When a tank should be able to safe the squishy one, the squishy one shouldn't be close enough to get hit and engaged on.
But when Talon stays at 900+ range and Cho stands at 700-800 range, Talon can't poke with his W.

It is not that this counter works, but that people use this situation where Talon is definitely in a disadvantage to justify the CDR and Spell vamp on him.

You are interpreting the whole statement the other way around without using the context of the whole thread.
My conversation has almost absolutely nothing to do with Lord Van Damm's Pillager. My original post was celebrating that % will now be applied before penetration and asking if the same would apply to reduction. I then got in a conversation about how this would help Assassins by making fights against Tanks not so one sided thanks to the ability to buy a LW without penetration and % clashing, thus allowing them to actually hurt someone with 200-300 armor.


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Akesgeroth

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Done25 View Post
Isn't the whole point of a tank to prevent people from reaching the squishes anyways? You're complaining that a counter is working properly. That's like saying there should be an easy way to stop Olaf from hitting R and walking up with his CC immunity + high MR and wrecking your mage's face.
I swear to ****ing god...

READ MY POSTS. THIS IS WHY I MENTIONED AMBUSHING THE ENEMY TEAM FROM BEHIND.

This is why assassins are so problematic. They don't go in from the front, they can't. But going in from the back is nigh impossible, especially if the enemy team is camping under a tower.


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Akesgeroth

Senior Member

10-25-2012

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Originally Posted by Kur View Post
That's kind of the point of assassins, to snowball. Which is why they're best in mid, kill your lane opponent/push the lane then roam to the outer lanes to kill them.
Except they can't be put in mid because it's where we send APs as they don't work as well in other lanes. This is why the assassins that work right now are those who are tanky enough for top or who can jungle well.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Done25 View Post
My conversation has almost absolutely nothing to do with Lord Van Damm's Pillager. My original post was celebrating that % will now be applied before penetration and asking if the same would apply to reduction. I then got in a conversation about how this would help Assassins by making fights against Tanks not so one sided thanks to the ability to buy a LW without penetration and % clashing, thus allowing them to actually hurt someone with 200-300 armor.
That was my fail, sorry. Read one post above the one you actually replied to once and got myself into that trap of 2 discussions in one thread.

The change in the penetration system will be nice, but it will lead to be a problem with MPen (sorc boots + VS) if they are not careful with these items (stacking flat + % pentration made defensive stats useless in S1)

But flat ArPen + % was only a problem if you really got a lot of % ArPen.

The old/new system vs the current one:
The difference of combining falt + % pen is exactly flat * %.
If you have 60 ArPen and 10% flat, you will only gain 6 more ArPen (not bad, but also not too much).
If you have 60 ArPen and 40% flat, it will be a 24 ArPen difference.

The old/new system works great against tanks and people that get over 150-200 Armor.
But don't forget what was the actual problem of that system:
Squishies with 100 or less Armor were easily brought down to 10-0 Armor, making this item build actually more effective against low Armor targets in that system (100% dmg increase, while it only gives around 50-60% more dmg against 200 Armor targets).

That makes building armor either useless if the enemy takes such a build or you need to take 1-2 hard armor items to get over the 200 Armor mark to make it useful enough (probably not worth it). In the end, the only way is to stack HP against such enemies then.


i think that flat penetration is the thing that should leave.
% reduction -> flat reduction -> % ArPen -> (removed)
maybe limit % ArPen (40% ArPen will at least reduce the Armor by 40; 40% + 10% = 46% but at least 46 ArPen).


Think back at S1, when bruisers where actually bad, cause every champ that dealt dmg could go through the defense and kill them as easy as squishies, while they ignored squishies and killed them with the AOE effects.