Lord Van Damm's Pillager

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Pocketbomb

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
That's actually quite different.

An Assassin will deal all its damage up front before counter-attack and disengange.

An AD Carry will deal a bunch of damage up front, but will be counter-attacked and will need to gain health back, because he needs to keep fighting.
I feel like you don't remember Akali's 15 minutes.

What's the difference between Akali and Talon, really?


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Done25

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
Armor penetration is going to play nice with itself: % pen is going back before flat pen, meaning Brutalizer + Last Whisper just got a lot sexier, and overall, Pantheon and Talon are getting a lot happier.
Yes, yes, yes. A thousand times YES. Now I don't have to feel bad about getting Ghostblade AND Last Whisper.
Will it be the same for reduction? Like Jarvan Q + Black Cleaver?


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Akesgeroth

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Done25 View Post
Yes, yes, yes. A thousand times YES. Now I don't have to feel bad about getting Ghostblade AND Last Whisper.
Will it be the same for reduction? Like Jarvan Q + Black Cleaver?
But the problem I see with this is that by the time you build the armor penetration, it's already too late in the game to matter unless you're fed. Yes, it'll help assassins kill squishies in late game, but not by a wide enough margin to matter. This is because lone ambush tactics rarely work in this game; let me explain before you reply to that without knowing what I meant.

Most team fights in this game will be both teams going head to head with each other. As an assassin, this is bad; you need to reach the squishies hiding in the back. You can't just blow through the enemy front lines, you'll die before getting to your target. What you SHOULD be doing is finding an alternate route to ambush the enemy's rear while the rest of your team keeps them busy in the front, move in, turn the squishies into a fine, red mist, then move out as fast as possible. However, this second scenario is nearly impossible to achieve currently. In fact, I've learned to do it quite effectively, yet I'll still get yelled at by teammates for not "Sticking with the team", and they're somewhat right:

1. Wards. If a ward gives me away when I set up such an ambush, I effectively turn into a free kill.

2. I have to hope the enemies don't decide to go towards me while trying to flank my teammates.

3. I have to hope they don't blow through my teammates so fast that I can't catch them before it's too late.

4. I have to time it just right; too early and they'll turn on me and kill me before I do anything. Too late and my ambush will be pointless.

5. Unless they get fed, currently, assassins do not do enough damage to take down a carry in late game, especially considering that carries have some really good escapes most of the time.

How do we fix these issues? As an example, Eve already goes around Number 1, which is the biggest offender, simply by being invisible to regular wards. Maybe assassins need more of such mechanics?


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Done25

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akesgeroth View Post
But the problem I see with this is that by the time you build the armor penetration, it's already too late in the game to matter unless you're fed. Yes, it'll help assassins kill squishies in late game, but not by a wide enough margin to matter. This is because lone ambush tactics rarely work in this game; let me explain before you reply to that without knowing what I meant.

Most team fights in this game will be both teams going head to head with each other. As an assassin, this is bad; you need to reach the squishies hiding in the back. You can't just blow through the enemy front lines, you'll die before getting to your target. What you SHOULD be doing is finding an alternate route to ambush the enemy's rear while the rest of your team keeps them busy in the front, move in, turn the squishies into a fine, red mist, then move out as fast as possible. However, this second scenario is nearly impossible to achieve currently. In fact, I've learned to do it quite effectively, yet I'll still get yelled at by teammates for not "Sticking with the team", and they're somewhat right:

1. Wards. If a ward gives me away when I set up such an ambush, I effectively turn into a free kill.

2. I have to hope the enemies don't decide to go towards me while trying to flank my teammates.

3. I have to hope they don't blow through my teammates so fast that I can't catch them before it's too late.

4. I have to time it just right; too early and they'll turn on me and kill me before I do anything. Too late and my ambush will be pointless.

How do we fix these issues? As an example, Eve already goes around Number 1, which is the biggest offender, simply by being invisible to regular wards. Maybe assassins need more of such mechanics?
That has absolutely nothing to do with why I was asking that. The problem was that combining both flat and % was inefficient. And if anything now that I can viably build both pen AND % I wont have to worry about getting to the back asap because I'll actually be able to hurt the 200 armor tank a bit.
Right now 200 - 60 *0.6 = 84 0.543 reduction
After 200 * 0.6 - 60= 60 0.625 reduction
That's a 15% increase in damage.


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Akesgeroth

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Done25 View Post
That has absolutely nothing to do with why I was asking that. The problem was that combining both flat and % was inefficient. And if anything now that I can viably build both pen AND % I wont have to worry about getting to the back asap because I'll actually be able to hurt the 200 armor tank a bit.
Right now 200 - 60 *0.6 = 84 0.543 reduction
After 200 * 0.6 - 60= 60 0.625 reduction
That's a 15% increase in damage.
Though that is definitely a plus, being able to kill tanks isn't exactly what assassins should be concerned about...

EDIT: Added part is now in next post.


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Done25

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akesgeroth View Post
Though that is definitely a plus, being able to kill tanks isn't exactly what assassins should be concerned about...
One of the problems right now though is that a fight between Talon and Amumu basically goes like this.
Talon has 200 AD and 60 ArPen.
Amumu has 3000 HP and 200 armor.
Amumu just sits there and cries harder than Talon hits.
With this buff Talon can buy a LW and actually do something about that mummy.
Better yet, against a lower armor target he would be doing true damage with each blow even after they buy some defense! Where as before cait would just need to get above the 60 ArPen value, now she would have to get above 100 armor! That's basically an entire Chain Vest that will now be nullified.


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Akesgeroth

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Done25 View Post
One of the problems right now though is that a fight between Talon and Amumu basically goes like this.
Talon has 200 AD and 60 ArPen.
Amumu has 3000 HP and 200 armor.
Amumu just sits there and cries harder than Talon hits.
With this buff Talon can buy a LW and actually do something about that mummy.
Better yet, against a lower armor target he would be doing true damage with each blow even after they buy some defense! Where as before cait would just need to get above the 60 ArPen value, now she would have to get above 100 armor! That's basically an entire Chain Vest that will now be nullified.
What I mean is, yeah, okay, you can damage tanks. But if you go to the frontline to do that, you'll still just die before doing anything significant because of CC. If you want to go to the front line, what you need isn't more damage to kill tanks but more survivability to not get ripped to shreds. The armor pen is useful still because it helps you finish off tanks once the teamfight is advanced and it helps go through that small amount of armor that carries will have stacked.

So yeah, that will definitely help against tanks. Once they have stacked armor and you have armor pen. Which is late game. Which means team fights most of the time.


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Done25

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akesgeroth View Post
What I mean is, yeah, okay, you can damage tanks. But if you go to the frontline to do that, you'll still just die before doing anything significant because of CC. If you want to go to the front line, what you need isn't more damage to kill tanks but more survivability to not get ripped to shreds. The armor pen is useful still because it helps you finish off tanks once the teamfight is advanced and it helps go through that small amount of armor that carries will have stacked.

So yeah, that will definitely help against tanks. Once they have stacked armor and you have armor pen. Which is late game. Which means team fights most of the time.
You don't have to engage right away now though. As it currently is if you're not attacking someone squishy you're useless. But now Talon can toss out a Rake or two while waiting for an opening to dive Graves and blow him up and actually do meaningful damage while doing so!


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Xyltin

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Done25 View Post
You don't have to engage right away now though. As it currently is if you're not attacking someone squishy you're useless. But now Talon can toss out a Rake or two while waiting for an opening to dive Graves and blow him up and actually do meaningful damage while doing so!
Throw out Take over 600 range, where every enemy can jump or even finish you? Smart idea.


Xyph explained it very well (just like Phreak tries to).
Such an item is for brusiers like Lee, Darius or Riven. Even Udyr like it.

Talon may want some spell vamp and also CDR, but his main focus lies on AD and ArPen. Talon needs to burst down the enemy in one go. He doesn't get a second shot, cause his ult has a too long CD for one fight and so does his E.
Talon also engages with full HP most of the time, unleashing the burst before the enemy does dmg, making spell vamp useless when trying to kill someone.

Spell vamp and CDR are ok for him in lane (he could need it from lvl 1-5, but then he will be fine without it).

But making a strong AD + ArPen item means that ADCs want it, too.

Xyph is working on a good AD caster item for SR. But it won't look like this.


For KZ such an item may work. KZ is an assassin, but different from Talon. He doesn't kill in one go and takes dmg over time. He wants to spam his Q as often as possible and survive.


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Akesgeroth

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Done25 View Post
You don't have to engage right away now though. As it currently is if you're not attacking someone squishy you're useless. But now Talon can toss out a Rake or two while waiting for an opening to dive Graves and blow him up and actually do meaningful damage while doing so!
That's a good point. But even then he'll mostly be wasting mana doing this and putting himself in harm's way. Let's switch Amumu for Leona for this hypothetical scenario. You go a bit forward to rake, you do it, and do a bit of damage. Then Leona extends her sword, stuns you with her shield and you're dead before her ult even lands on you. Poking power isn't what assassins should care about.

I do agree that giving them a better chance against tanks and tanky DPS was important, but the issue of getting to the enemy squishies unscathed in late game is still present.