Please dealy new TT map.

First Riot Post
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onechange

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIOLENTxSHINOBI View Post
I really can't believe one of your goals was to remove a full time, dedicated jungler...

/mind boggled

Why on earth would you further reduce the variety of roles that can be played?
You can still have a jungler if you want...it just seems more effective to have 2 man lane bottom with a roamer who jungles while roaming/ganking.


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Venova

Senior Member

10-25-2012

@RiotNome Can something be done to improve the viability of true supports? I played Lulu and against the typucal TT bruisers only enemy team comp I really couldn't do much of anything, even if I whimsy and slow and shield, basically unless it was a 3v1 situation, we couldn't do it, and we have Vayne and Malphite (Malphite may have been a factor here, not alot of damage from him, and kindof another off support brusier)

I just feel like supports like Lulu, Soraka, Janna and Sona, and maybe even Leona given her very slow movement speed, are really going to have problems on TT2. I saw you mentioned Janna in one of your replies, I can see her working maybe, if people are laning. A big limitation here is the ease of the jungle for just about any champion, and so what I have seen in my few games so far is virtually no laning at all. Just a bit to push it and then everyone goes in the jungle until enough people die for something to be pushed some more. Additionally, with no wards, most supports have no escape if they are in the lane or jungle, they have no warning, and a high damage bruiser like darius, xin zhao, can take down your typical slow moving support almost instantly, and they had no warning. Given the fluid nature of the map, mia's are called alot less frequently, and you can't just turret hug because youll be out of exp range or dove. Maybe I should try some other item builds, in that Lulu game I was doing my typical shurelias/boots -> malady build, shuelias did save me on a few occasions most bruisers have some kind of gap closer so it wasn't really effective at escaping, even with whimsy and flash.

tl;dr please try to do something to improve the viability of a duo lane carry/true support team comp.


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gods shortbus

Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drevsh View Post

1. More Viable Team Comps :
The new jungle provides to much farm,http://imgur.com/a/7EnuC (I know this is free farm, but it gives you an idea on how much gold there is in the new jungle) you literally have to have a jungler. Well Did you now what happens when you have two solo lanes? Yep, that's right no tanky supports or AD carrys in the game anymore all day long bruisers with one AP carry.
This is EXACTLY what will be happening. Why would I want to solo as a support/tank?

I love how you pointed this out by the way


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Worlds Smu Giest

Senior Member

10-25-2012

I've played two games so far with tt, and singed jayce and surprisingly udyr are a very powerful combination.

Singed Dominates this map in a whole new way and with a ranged poke like jayce and the heavy cc of udyr? you are done.

The spacing is a tad bit too open, teemo can do almost nothing early game to survive, and yes support champs don't even bother selecting for this map, leona can work tho with full ap tank, darius actually can get shut down hard on this map.

All in all, I'd say this map needs a lot more pathways and maze like qualities to it's jungle, the extra starting gold is nice but hardly needed with how quickly things ramp up.


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Best Sona Mid NA

Member

10-25-2012

Nome, can I ask what was the reasoning behind releasing a new map before the season was over? This is going to mess up anyone who was still going for gold on 3s. A lot of wins right now are going to come down to luck rather than good team comps. Did we pick a champ that will be good on this map or not? How is our comp going to fare versus theirs?

I have nothing against the new map. I still think it needs tweaking though. You say that there are things that need tuning in your post. So obviously you don't think it was balanced. So why release it before the season ended? You have the whole preseason to tweak it, so why put it out when there are tangible benefits to players that may not be acquired now.


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Archyboy

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Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post

2. The idea behind an easier jungle was that it shouldn't be a full-time job. If you go into the new jungle with the mentality that you'll need to bring Smite and a full complement of jungle-specific rune and masteries, you'd come overprepared. But that's the point! When you only have three players on a team, you want to reduce limitations as best as possible; the best way to do this is to reduce the barrier of entry on the most restrictive role. That's not to say Smite is useless. While you can certainly jungle without Smite, Smite does increase your jungling speed by a good bit and help you with invading. As far as neutral strength goes, we're still tuning that.
You know, to reduce the need of a constant jungler on both maps is to make the jungle mobs even stronger while increasing the price of cloth armor or reducing the stats on armor runes/masteries/items early game. The point of jungling is to be slower than the lanes while allowing two solo lanes.


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Twilight Monkey

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
1. Give it some time and wait for some experimentation. I've heard wildly varying reports about champion viability, but my own experience through testing has been that you can use a much larger variety of champions now. Try Caitlyn, AP Janna, or Xerath, for example. All three would have performed poorly in the old TT, but due to various changes, are now quite viable.

2. The idea behind an easier jungle was that it shouldn't be a full-time job. If you go into the new jungle with the mentality that you'll need to bring Smite and a full complement of jungle-specific rune and masteries, you'd come overprepared. But that's the point! When you only have three players on a team, you want to reduce limitations as best as possible; the best way to do this is to reduce the barrier of entry on the most restrictive role. That's not to say Smite is useless. While you can certainly jungle without Smite, Smite does increase your jungling speed by a good bit and help you with invading. As far as neutral strength goes, we're still tuning that.

3. The death timer is only reduced down in the early levels (i.e., from the old 20 seconds at level 1 to 13 seconds). This is another point that's received a huge variation in feedback, so we're monitoring it closely. It will need tuning.

4. I actually agree with the snowball factor here. We're looking into ways to alleviate this.

Also, I don't know what you mean by Shaco being useless. He's one of the few champions that can jump over the Speed Shrine and Vilemaw walls.
Do you even know what you are talking about?

Its not about what you hear, its about taste: the majority of those who played the Old TT enjoyed it and its play. If you truly 'hear' anything, its that we are not happy about this and forcing it down our throats is durely not helping. One more thing on that topic, we also wanted to keep the old TT if anything else. Get your ears checked.

1. WRONG: I have played againts those 3 champs in the old tt and they did great. You see, any tt player can tell you that it is a matter of team composition: It is not so mutch the map rather than having a team of 3 that makes some champ far stronger.

Oh, guess what? That havent changed. Rather this map still give greater advantage to some champs whom, funny enough, are very similar to those who rules the old TT.

2. Non argument. the old jungle had problems with its random buffs not its difficulty. Also the new jungle is one of the source of snowballing since the enemy that can bully the other team and take the two pads can also clear the enemy jungle with ease and get a greater advantage.

3-4: We have posted so many things in pbe and on this forum on that matter but here's a tip: WARDS. Have you wondered what it would be if your removed wards in SR? Think about it for a while. Also the bush bot lane straight up from the first tower should not be there: absolutly no safety from ganks.


I don't wish to be spiteful, but I am.
I am because we are not listen to and I get the feeling you just want to shove this down our throats and hope we forget about a map we enjoyed adn still think is more fun.


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George W Nome

Game Designer

10-25-2012
3 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venova View Post
@RiotNome Can something be done to improve the viability of true supports? I played Lulu and against the typucal TT bruisers only enemy team comp I really couldn't do much of anything, even if I whimsy and slow and shield, basically unless it was a 3v1 situation, we couldn't do it, and we have Vayne and Malphite (Malphite may have been a factor here, not alot of damage from him, and kindof another off support brusier)

I just feel like supports like Lulu, Soraka, Janna and Sona, and maybe even Leona given her very slow movement speed, are really going to have problems on TT2. I saw you mentioned Janna in one of your replies, I can see her working maybe, if people are laning. A big limitation here is the ease of the jungle for just about any champion, and so what I have seen in my few games so far is virtually no laning at all. Just a bit to push it and then everyone goes in the jungle until enough people die for something to be pushed some more. Additionally, with no wards, most supports have no escape if they are in the lane or jungle, they have no warning, and a high damage bruiser like darius, xin zhao, can take down your typical slow moving support almost instantly, and they had no warning. Given the fluid nature of the map, mia's are called alot less frequently, and you can't just turret hug because youll be out of exp range or dove. Maybe I should try some other item builds, in that Lulu game I was doing my typical shurelias/boots -> malady build, shuelias did save me on a few occasions most bruisers have some kind of gap closer so it wasn't really effective at escaping, even with whimsy and flash.

tl;dr please try to do something to improve the viability of a duo lane carry/true support team comp.
The viability of a true support will depend heavily on the viability of the carry he supports. I spectated an 1800 game earlier today in which a Taric/Vayne duo and Swain solo top completely dominated a more traditional Jax/Lee/Karma bot/jungle/top. There's certainly room for the strategy, and it will hinge both on how well the duo lane is able to shut down the solo, as well as how well well the carry is able to function when fed.


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Mirai Lotus

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Senior Member

10-25-2012

I would of waited to release this on season 3 and not at the ending of season 2. You have a lot of team still playing and now they have to relearn the whole map. It really messed the, and US up. can you please give us the old one for the ending?


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kenuto

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Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
The viability of a true support will depend heavily on the viability of the carry he supports. I spectated an 1800 game earlier today in which a Taric/Vayne duo and Swain solo top completely dominated a more traditional Jax/Lee/Karma bot/jungle/top. There's certainly room for the strategy, and it will hinge both on how well the duo lane is able to shut down the solo, as well as how well well the carry is able to function when fed.
not too sure why, but this made me imagine a giant Janna forcing Lee into Vayne's mouth.
"im feeding you!"

for only 2.95 a minute.