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@Riot Feedback on Kha'Zix. Changes he needs.

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Lethal Loki

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Hi my names LethalLoki and I approve of this message and its contents! That is all I guess... except maybe try all the changes, except the passive at first since that is an easy fix. Maybe its because I find it hard to grasp realistically what these number shifts combined with the ultimate change will result in the game but I think the passive change would be too stronk!1


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Aelthar

Senior Member

10-25-2012

rito pls


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Volty

Recruiter

10-25-2012

Quote:
Darklarik:
Hello, i would like to offer Riot some feed Back on Kha'Zix the voidreaver.


Wow thank you for all the attention and thought you put into this post. I can't reply to each point you're making so I just have a couple of quick updates.

We are pretty happy with his current performance right now, and with large changes coming up soon in season 3 we're more likely to wait and see how the dust settles there before making significant changes. That said, the nerfs to several other strong champions that went into the last patch will probably open up more space for Kha'Zix (and others) immediately.

I am also pushing to get an increase to the healing radius of W into the next patch, purely for useability reasons, so that you can't both be in melee range of a target but then not get the healing from a W detonating against that target. This change is already in and just awaits signoff.

Q is strong. Yes! I balance champions not abilities. To a lesser extent I try to balance rank up incentives. I like Q hitting hard and being awesome. If it wasn't strange, I would have Q cost zero mana vs. champions. There really isn't a situation where I want the player to be like "hey, I could Q that guy but I won't because I'm saving mana for something else." That's not really the choice I am trying to present. Q is specifically undercosted mana wise so that players use it without having to be too careful about the mana they're spending.

Contrast to W which has huge mana costs, especially when ranked up. This is because I'm invoking gameplay around the choice of "should I use this skill or save my mana?"

Using a window of time on Void Assault helps to contain a frustrating skill to a specific place in time. It helps to create counterplay where you can observe that Kha'Zix has ulted recently and so you know he can't again. That's not as easy when the skill gains ammo at unpredictable intervals or is difficult for an opponent to track.

I agree though, that if we want to buff Kha'Zix, it could very well be that his ultimate is a place to buff. Something as simple as increasing the stealth duration by 0.25 or 0.5 seconds would have a huge impact. (We know because we tested it.) I don't think this is good thing to do right now though, because I don't think Kha'Zix needs that kind of a buff. But if we did...

Awesome to hear that you're playing him mid lane! Thanks again for the commentary and see you on the fields of justice.


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Udajit

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Volty:
I'm awesome and balance awesome champions..


Hi, Volty. I've had this thread bookmarked for a while because I was working on my response to the OP (though I agree a lot with what he's been saying.)

I believe Kha'Zix is really sleeper OP and I'm eager to see the S3 itemization changes, but for now, I believe Kha'Zix will come into the spotlight in poke compositions if top lane becomes easier for him (which it has with op Jayce nerfed!)

I was just curious if you folks ever internally tested him inside that sort of comp? What I've come to do is build him like Urgot - Manamune/FH/BT with brutalizer and/or LW.

Basically, if you can survive/win your lane with these items, he ends up with a whole heck of a lot of mana, durability, burst (on isolated targets!) and poke. I mean, late game I can hit people with 220 damage from my passive at 18+ the easy 400 AD damage from the 1:.9 ratio on Spikes if you've fleshed out the BT and Manamune.. That's a potential whopping 1860 to their team (assuming you managed to hit three targets.) And with max CDR Spikes is on a 4.1 cooldown.

And the coolest part about pok'Zix is that he's got a great engage/disengage with upgraded E.

I'm kind of just gushing about this champ. I really, really, reaaally like him...(even if he cost me 120 elo in ranked because I wanted to learn him top and I don't play top.)


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Volty

Recruiter

10-25-2012

Quote:
Udajit:
Hi, Volty. I've had this thread bookmarked for a while because I was working on my response to the OP (though I agree a lot with what he's been saying.)

I believe Kha'Zix is really sleeper OP and I'm eager to see the S3 itemization changes, but for now, I believe Kha'Zix will come into the spotlight in poke compositions if top lane becomes easier for him (which it has with op Jayce nerfed!)

I was just curious if you folks ever internally tested him inside that sort of comp? What I've come to do is build him like Urgot - Manamune/FH/BT with brutalizer and/or LW.

Basically, if you can survive/win your lane with these items, he ends up with a whole heck of a lot of mana, durability, burst (on isolated targets!) and poke. I mean, late game I can hit people with 220 damage from my passive at 18+ the easy 400 AD damage from the 1:.9 ratio on Spikes if you've fleshed out the BT and Manamune.. That's a potential whopping 1860 to their team (assuming you managed to hit three targets.) And with max CDR Spikes is on a 4.1 cooldown.

And the coolest part about pok'Zix is that he's got a great engage/disengage with upgraded E.

I'm kind of just gushing about this champ. I really, really, reaaally like him...(even if he cost me 120 elo in ranked because I wanted to learn him top and I don't play top.)


I played pok'Zix in ARAM the other day, it was brutal. I think this could work on SR in the right comp. Also having mana be a little easier to acquire or more worthwhile would help...


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Darklarik

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Volty:
Wow thank you for all the attention and thought you put into this post. I can't reply to each point you're making so I just have a couple of quick updates.

We are pretty happy with his current performance right now, and with large changes coming up soon in season 3 we're more likely to wait and see how the dust settles there before making significant changes. That said, the nerfs to several other strong champions that went into the last patch will probably open up more space for Kha'Zix (and others) immediately.

I am also pushing to get an increase to the healing radius of W into the next patch, purely for useability reasons, so that you can't both be in melee range of a target but then not get the healing from a W detonating against that target. This change is already in and just awaits signoff.

Q is strong. Yes! I balance champions not abilities. To a lesser extent I try to balance rank up incentives. I like Q hitting hard and being awesome. If it wasn't strange, I would have Q cost zero mana vs. champions. There really isn't a situation where I want the player to be like "hey, I could Q that guy but I won't because I'm saving mana for something else." That's not really the choice I am trying to present. Q is specifically undercosted mana wise so that players use it without having to be too careful about the mana they're spending.

Contrast to W which has huge mana costs, especially when ranked up. This is because I'm invoking gameplay around the choice of "should I use this skill or save my mana?"

Using a window of time on Void Assault helps to contain a frustrating skill to a specific place in time. It helps to create counterplay where you can observe that Kha'Zix has ulted recently and so you know he can't again. That's not as easy when the skill gains ammo at unpredictable intervals or is difficult for an opponent to track.

I agree though, that if we want to buff Kha'Zix, it could very well be that his ultimate is a place to buff. Something as simple as increasing the stealth duration by 0.25 or 0.5 seconds would have a huge impact. (We know because we tested it.) I don't think this is good thing to do right now though, because I don't think Kha'Zix needs that kind of a buff. But if we did...

Awesome to hear that you're playing him mid lane! Thanks again for the commentary and see you on the fields of justice.

Thanks for the Reply!
I understand the W needs high mana, but it makes his Jungle very difficult, and he is listed a jungler.

In regards to the Ult, its is really underwhelming, at least it feels that way. I often have to burn all my charges just to reach a single target. Then i have to wait for 100-80 seconds? its way to much. Akali for example is difficult to track her ult, shes like the Juking assassin king right now because with even minimal CDR she can always have access to her ul (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1QiQ5LDgkM)t. Seing how its a blinking damage ability, its very reliable for mobility.

Kha'zix right now dosent have that mobility. Most teambattles dont last 10 seconds. They have dissengages and re-engages. Being able to correctly adminester his Charges is essential if he wants to be able to assassinaate at correct moments and de-re engage on opponents (after all, he is VERY squishy). I just feel his ult is increadibly underwelming. I hope you guys change it so that it becomes more realiable, while nerfing some other part of his kit (like his Q), since with an realiable ult, his passive will compensate quite a lot of things, and deffinitely give him more utility cc, something many people are complaining that he is lacking in

PS: Also, im very dissapointed in the rengar nerfs, i think it was a little over the top. I wrote in an article (in the middle, past the "balance" line) ideas that i think could adress his major problems (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=30623073#post30623073)


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Udajit

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Volty:
I played pok'Zix in ARAM the other day, it was brutal. I think this could work on SR in the right comp. Also having mana be a little easier to acquire or more worthwhile would help...


I'm gonna assume the brutal thing meant it didn't go so well.

Because of the fact it's essentially three pokes for the price of one that covers a huge area, you're able to bully people off of baron/dragon/turrets (especially mid tier 3 and baron) in a really cruel way. The short CD and mana cost of Q lets him farm out his total pool but inevitably, the mana comes a huge investment which is relatively unnecessary. Unfortunately, I've found that if I don't invest in some mana, unless I'm ultraconservative with his abilities in a teamfight, you can eat through his entire base mana pool quickly and be left without anything. There's not a really strong middle ground between these besides investing in powerful mana regen (say, a Shurelias) which isn't really optimal either.


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Snippa

Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Volty:
Wow thank you for all the attention and thought you put into this post. I can't reply to each point you're making so I just have a couple of quick updates.

We are pretty happy with his current performance right now, and with large changes coming up soon in season 3 we're more likely to wait and see how the dust settles there before making significant changes. That said, the nerfs to several other strong champions that went into the last patch will probably open up more space for Kha'Zix (and others) immediately.

I am also pushing to get an increase to the healing radius of W into the next patch, purely for useability reasons, so that you can't both be in melee range of a target but then not get the healing from a W detonating against that target. This change is already in and just awaits signoff.

Q is strong. Yes! I balance champions not abilities. To a lesser extent I try to balance rank up incentives. I like Q hitting hard and being awesome. If it wasn't strange, I would have Q cost zero mana vs. champions. There really isn't a situation where I want the player to be like "hey, I could Q that guy but I won't because I'm saving mana for something else." That's not really the choice I am trying to present. Q is specifically undercosted mana wise so that players use it without having to be too careful about the mana they're spending.

Contrast to W which has huge mana costs, especially when ranked up. This is because I'm invoking gameplay around the choice of "should I use this skill or save my mana?"

Using a window of time on Void Assault helps to contain a frustrating skill to a specific place in time. It helps to create counterplay where you can observe that Kha'Zix has ulted recently and so you know he can't again. That's not as easy when the skill gains ammo at unpredictable intervals or is difficult for an opponent to track.

I agree though, that if we want to buff Kha'Zix, it could very well be that his ultimate is a place to buff. Something as simple as increasing the stealth duration by 0.25 or 0.5 seconds would have a huge impact. (We know because we tested it.) I don't think this is good thing to do right now though, because I don't think Kha'Zix needs that kind of a buff. But if we did...

Awesome to hear that you're playing him mid lane! Thanks again for the commentary and see you on the fields of justice.

You may find my thoughts on Kha'Zix here interesting: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2673027

I don't feel he needs any major buffs, but does need something done to increase his viability in late game, until he becomes viable in the late game (he is NOT right now, and this is why I no longer play him), then he will just be a complete joke.

Edit: Kha'Zix does not currently fit into the top lane meta or the jungle meta at all. He lacks the tankiness (even w/ tank items hes extremely squishy) and has no team fight initiation like Maokai, Skarner, and some of the other junglers.


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TOP10 ELO

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Udajit:
Hi, Volty. I've had this thread bookmarked for a while because I was working on my response to the OP (though I agree a lot with what he's been saying.)

I believe Kha'Zix is really sleeper OP and I'm eager to see the S3 itemization changes, but for now, I believe Kha'Zix will come into the spotlight in poke compositions if top lane becomes easier for him (which it has with op Jayce nerfed!)

I was just curious if you folks ever internally tested him inside that sort of comp? What I've come to do is build him like Urgot - Manamune/FH/BT with brutalizer and/or LW.

Basically, if you can survive/win your lane with these items, he ends up with a whole heck of a lot of mana, durability, burst (on isolated targets!) and poke. I mean, late game I can hit people with 220 damage from my passive at 18+ the easy 400 AD damage from the 1:.9 ratio on Spikes if you've fleshed out the BT and Manamune.. That's a potential whopping 1860 to their team (assuming you managed to hit three targets.) And with max CDR Spikes is on a 4.1 cooldown.

And the coolest part about pok'Zix is that he's got a great engage/disengage with upgraded E.

I'm kind of just gushing about this champ. I really, really, reaaally like him...(even if he cost me 120 elo in ranked because I wanted to learn him top and I don't play top.)

You are just going to feed if you are going for that late game setup that isn't going to happen unless you are pushed to your inihibitors / nexus


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ReluctantFantasy

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Volty:
I played pok'Zix in ARAM the other day, it was brutal. I think this could work on SR in the right comp. Also having mana be a little easier to acquire or more worthwhile would help...


Really? I think the real problem lies with q doing most of the damage, its just my thoughts his w is really weak and the cast time on jump is absurd I dont think anyone will play him at the current state. I wish you guys would just increase stealth duration like you said and decrease the cast time on his leap so it doesn't feel clunky. For an assasin he deals very little damage, I understand that he has more utility than talon, akali and couple of other assassins but his passive and W again seems very very weak on all terms of the game. Giving him more room to use ultimate would serve a better purpose too, decreasing cooldown I mean because right now it doesnt really do that much if you think about it compared to vayne ultimate, now I'm not going to bring up rengar because he gets a leap but at the same time I wish would do much more like increase his movement speed by a base or 80% so he can catch up use q and get out. He seems like an awesome hero but too bad he cant compare to monsters like jax irelia rumble even