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@Riot Feedback on Kha'Zix. Changes he needs.

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InfestorMordecai

Recruiter

10-23-2012

Quote:
Siky:
Funny fact, of all the champions you named, KZ is the only one that can't do anything when he builds tanky.

- Olaf regardless of his build always does True Damage.
- Darius regardless of his build always does True Damage.
- Rengar regardless of his build can detect stealth and has a snare.
- Renekton regardless of his build always has a stun.

Their builds don't inhibit their damage, they only enhance it. However the problem with Kha'Zix is that:

- KZ's damage is situational and he doesn't deal more damage than other champions with this restriction even when it's conditions are met.

* Rengar Q + Q damage = 150 (+1.0) + 130 (+2.5) = 280 (+3.5 per AD)
* KZ Isolated Q damage = 280 (+2.8 bonus AD)

That's a big problem. Don't tell me that Rengar has to use 2 Qs and have a Ferocity available to deal damage, he fights when he's ready and in a team fight, his damage downs targets faster than Kha'Zix can allowing for him to snowball the team fight in his favor. Not only this, but he also has an Armor and MR buff to help him survive which is important for any Melee champion that doesn't build tanky AND he has both a slow and a snare.

- Evolved Void Spike is an AOE poke that deals about 250 physical damage and 100 magic damage for 100 mana and it has a 35% slow for 2 seconds.

It's not bad, but the damage feels low just because it has a slow attached to it. I would argue that I would not shed a single tear if we lost the 35% slow and got something more meaningful like maybe more DAMAGE. I would even settle for something more outrageous, how about an Armor Debuff. I can already Leap like 800 range and my Ult applies my slow already because I don't use it for anything else, so why do I have a slow on this thing? What am I supposed to use it for?



This is from the post Eyepop linked. It brings up valid points. Though, I dont want to see him tanky, since Lord Van Damms Pillager is (I hope) a start to AD caster items

But the ranged slow is amazing for escaping and peeling so I love the Evolved Spike Rack procs his passive. More damage would be nice from the passive though, again a scaling issue.

In all honesty, his Q is not meant to be evolved for a jungler. If you use his ult correctly, you will always output more damage than his Evolved Claws.

Assuming 2200 HP and 100 armor for a "squishy" you at lvl 18 and a semi complete build your Q does 500 damage or 250 after armor resistance plus Enlarged Claws

250+110(passive Proc), 250+15, 250+36, 250+63, 250+82, 250+102 and AA's between cooldowns he's dead. Bonus damage at 408 after armor reduction, but you are trading damage for damage

With his upgraded ult its 4 Procs of his passive each at 220 (assuming 100 MR its 110 magic damage) or after ulting you have done 440, plus you took less damage from being stealthed

Of course this is assuming a low health squishy with 100 Armor and 100 MR, if you have good armor pen and they are lacking armor for whatever reason, Evolved Claws would do more damage, but MR is usually lower on squishy's so your passive might proc for more anyways.

What Im getting at is basically my build for KZ, Wings, Missiles, Camo. I can see that his Ult and passive are designed to be that assassination nuke/burst that is suppose to kill squishys, but his Ult has to be used 3 times in 10 seconds, each use having a 3 second cooldown. You have less than 2 seconds to use your next charge or risk losing a charge to the timer.

1v1, its a potent combination... but when it comes to a team fight, it becomes very lacking. Zero Unit collision would let you move around in a team fight and some sort of CC cleanse would make it more "utilitous". My idea of the CC cleanse is best said by an example.

Say youre chasing teemo, little punk has set up shrooms to slow you down while he uses move quick. You shoot off a missle, and it procs your slow, so youre gaining on him. You hit a shroom, so you pop your ult, you still take the damage but for the 1 second you dont take any slow and get the MS bonus. You make good ground, but your slow has worn off and you see teemo drop another shroom. You come out of stealth and the shroom slow kicks back in. You leap over the shroom he dropped and ult again. This time, although you dont know it, you walk right through another shroom teemo had as a trap. You gain enough to leap to him and Q to proc your passive you fight and now (with the 15 second ult) you can save your last charge until he starts running past you again, you ult and either catch up and Q again or you can now W so slow him down.


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Firellius

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Darklarik:


Q: Taste THEIR fear
This ability is really strong (The evolution isnt overpowering, infact i think its fine the way it is), infact, i will say too strong for its CD and mana cost. Its understandable, given that the rest of his Kit at the moment isnt very good in providing him with more damage, so he becomes overdependant on his Q to dish out the main source of Damage. I belive this Ability needs to be toned down a bit while strengthening the rest of his abilities, so hes not just a champion who needs to QQ people to death (we have Rengar for that).

Changes: i see 3 possible Changes to tone this ability down.
1. Higher Mana cost at early levels. 25 mana at all levels is seriously a bit of a joke, hes got an ability that can potentially deal 100 (+ 240% bonus AD) at lv 1 is VERY strong.
2. Higher CD. Aside from the mana cost, which wouldent be much of a problem if he wouldent be able to spam this so often, 3.5 is a bit to short for something like this, at least at lv 1. A scaling cd, like 5.5 /5 /4.5 /4 /3.5. I belive this is most optimal since a lot of Kha'Zix love to get CD reduction (cd boots and Ghostblade are common items), which makes this ability even more spamable.
3. Increase Isolation range. If the target aint isolated, this abilty wont be dealing as much damage as it would (especially when its evolved).


I have found that the Q is essential to how Kha'Zix plays, and while a reasonable mana cost increase at early levels (Careful, Kha'Zix has a small mana pool) or a CD increase at early levels seem pretty fair, the isolation range increase will probably kill the ability too much. And by doing so, it would kill the way Kha'Zix plays. Kha'Zix's experience is a bit different from most assassins, and I'd like to keep it that way.

EDIT: Also, ftfy.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

10-23-2012

From my view playing him Jungle/Top(and even Mid which oddly works) here is my rundown of each move and its evolution (Disclaimer a bit wordy)

Taste Their Fear: This move is fine it punishes 1 v 1 loving champions and hp stacking champions but you really only get 2-3 off in a teamfight before you have to retreat or die if your lucky.
Evolved Claws: The only real reason to get this is if you are 1 v 1 a lot because the enemy is roaming. You will rarely if ever proc the increased damage in a teamfight the benefit in teamfights is the larger range which as an assassin is only marginally helpful but not much given his playstyle.

Voidspike: The heal should be for landing the skillshot should be on hit to me the damage is "eh" but not really needing changes.
Evolved Spike Racks: the 3 shots should each proc his heal for a max of roughly 300-350hp considering Kha rarely has AP this gives him a 'burst heal' to use to decieve enemies into rushing him so he can point-blank shoot them and leap off (if not CC'd)

Leap: This move is Kha'Zix's primary initiate/escape currently the range is quite short unevolved but that is good. As such an amazing movement utility the CD is legitimately long.
Evolved Wings: I wouldn't know a single Kha player who doesn't have this the range almost doubles and refreshes on kill this is perfect to allow him to bug-leap from squishies or quickly get out before he is focused like the squishy bug he is.

Stealth Assault: Is very lackluster currently it is nothing more than a means to refresh his passive. If used as an initiation you un-stealth in front of the tanks and die 90% of the time. You still are CC'able stealthed and with how squishy Kha is this is a 1 way ticket to death.
Evolved Camoflauge: 3 triggers in 10 seconds with a delay is very hard unless you spam it which then the enemy can guess where you will be. 40% damage reduction makes it pretty much only usefull for dodging turret shots as you still will be standing right where you are or near to it with most mages having bursting cc or at least a Rylais. This should be a CC cleanse/immune for its duration and its duration per charge should be 1.5 seconds (2 seconds would be too long and easy to set up ganks) The duration should be 15 seconds with a 1 second delay allowing players to skillfully time the phases to confuse the enemy.

Kha'Zix should be an assassin who's kit is lackluster at start and each evolution brings utility and options to the player. Currently he is just a bursty AD who dies if he is so much as CC'd (much like an ADC which he is not)

TLDR:
Q is fine
Qevolved: is fine really as the isolation is part of his 'thing'
W: Mana cost is too high for a medium strength poke that can't slow till evolved.
Wevolved: All 3 shots should be able to heal him.
E: is fine
Eevolved: is fine.
R: Is too short and should be extended to 1.5 seconds with 1 second between stealths.
Revolved: Should give him a CC remover and reduction allowing him to keep mobile in teamfights.
Passive: perhaps scale a bit better into late game maybe have it deal base magic damage and a small ratio of true damage.


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Darklarik

Senior Member

10-24-2012

Quote:
caledfwch598:
A thought just occurred to me. Honestly if you look at it his Q evolve is the least worth while. A 12% execute on missing health isn't much. at best you get maybe 150 more damage from it. so what if we made it so that the Q evolve makes targets marked with his passive count as isolated? This would solve one of kha's major flaws. In team fights its next to impossible to get the damage bonus and without it your damage is painfully low.

If your Ult were an ammo system, you wouldent need it. Your more consistent Passive proc and ability to disengage would make the ability to overpowering, since in a teamfight with an ammo youll be darting around much more, finding whos isolated would become a lot easier.

a 12 % execute might not sound like much, but when you think of the abilities base damage and scaling when isolated (280 (+ 240% bonus AD)), Its already dealing a LOT, given its 3 second CD, you will be dealing a 450-600 damaging nuke every 3 seconds (that gets even more powerfull) plus your passives from the ammo system. Its a lot of burst any way you look at it, with almost no way to escape it.


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Least Pro Lee NA

Senior Member

10-24-2012

Quote:
Darklarik:
If your Ult were an ammo system, you wouldent need it. Your more consistent Passive proc and ability to disengage would make the ability to overpowering, since in a teamfight with an ammo youll be darting around much more, finding whos isolated would become a lot easier.

a 12 % execute might not sound like much, but when you think of the abilities base damage and scaling when isolated (280 (+ 240% bonus AD)), Its already dealing a LOT, given its 3 second CD, you will be dealing a 450-600 damaging nuke every 3 seconds (that gets even more powerfull) plus your passives from the ammo system. Its a lot of burst any way you look at it, with almost no way to escape it.


The problem is this damage is situation. unless you have a team geared towards massively powerful AOE that forces the enemy to split up your not going to get the isolation bonus. this gives him more consistent damage. but a i agree doing this and an ammo system would be a little to strong.


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Least Pro Lee NA

Senior Member

10-24-2012

bump


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RexSaur

Senior Member

10-24-2012

Honestly the only changes the could use is the removal of unit collision on ult activation.

Hes already pretty good and effective, any real buff could lead him into the ''too strong'' area, his Q damage is simply nuts on a low CD and low mana cost..


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Darklarik

Senior Member

10-24-2012

Quote:
RexSaur:
Honestly the only changes the could use is the removal of unit collision on ult activation.

Hes already pretty good and effective, any real buff could lead him into the ''too strong'' area, his Q damage is simply nuts on a low CD and low mana cost..

Did you read? I specified that hes overeliant on his Q. And that it should be nerfed while strengthening the rest of his kit.

he needs the ammo system btw. His ult is completely lackluster and useless. Read my arguments, if you disagree, explain why with detail.


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Scork

Senior Member

10-24-2012

Take this bump.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

10-24-2012

I would vote increase the CD on his Q to 4 or 5 seconds if it is to maintain with the ammo system for his ult. A CC break and unit ignore would make his stealth much more effective because looking at other stealth champs who do not ignore collision they all have longer stealth I believe Shaco's Decieve lasts 2-3 seconds where Kha's lasts 1 second comparably. Lengthening it would make it more effective 1.5 if its on an ammo system would avoid the "too much stealthing" issue.
Alternatively bump the heal on his W if he is in multiple explosions and he gains a way to deal with bruisers like Lee-sin or others who normally can just shut him out if they see him coming. Along with that and keeping the ult as a 2 trigger and 3 trigger respectively (though the time to execute all 3 needs to be increased to 15 or 20 seconds with 1 second delays) and a CC break and he then won't need the collision ignore.
I agree with Dark is that he is too reliant on his Q for damage and the isolation is too inconsistent when compared to other assassins like talon who just get bonus damage for you being slowed or CC'd.