What is Elo Hell?

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?XJ9

Junior Member

10-22-2012

xj9


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solemendal View Post
elo hell is when ur elo gets dropped from afks and when ur 16/0/5 and u lose because somebody wanted to play ap trynd in mid lane and is 0/23/0
Ranked matches in your 10-match history:

Evelynn, 14/7/5, win. (jungling, 106 cs in 36 minutes)
Vayne, 3/7/2, loss. (97 cs in 27 minutes)
Gragas, 2/10/5, loss. (97 cs in 30 minutes)
Alistar, 0/7/5 loss. (jungling, 81 cs in 31 minutes)
Vayne, 10/3/13 win. (105 cs in 29 minutes)
Alistar, 1/2/3 loss. (jungling, 75 cs in 26 minutes)
Sejuani, 1/5/1 loss. (jungling, 62 cs in 26 minutes)


I mean, you've got pretty low CS in all of your matches, especially your ADC and APC matches. You're negative KDA in all of your losses except an unremarkable 1/2/3 with Alistar, and you're positive KDA in your one victory, and you've got a great looking 10/3/13.

I mean, are you really going to tell me that this 5 loss, 1 win match sample was the fault of your teammates in your 5 losses, and purely your own skill in the 1 win?


EDIT: When I was looking I had overlooked your most recent match, the Evelynn win, but it doesn't change much. You won the 2 ranked matches in which you went positive (and went positive by a lot) and carried and you lost the 5 matches in which you were negative. In some cases, like 2/10 Gragas and 0/7 Alistar, I imagine your teammates were blaming Elo hell for matching them with a teammate like you.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by t0ad5 View Post
Elo Hell is being screwed (12 games in a row with leavers/afk/trolls/etc) into being stuck with bottom of the barrel people, with which elo loss is perpetual.

With time and some luck you can get out. Just expect a lot of frustration due to the type of people down there, having to dodge champ select a lot due to trolls and people unwilling to work together to build a team, and having to hard carry bads.

Example, last night in champ select:
guy: "playing whatever the f*** I want"
me: "would you care to share what that is with the rest of the team so that we can pick champs around you, and win?"
guy: "no"
t0ad5, I don't understand you at all.

For one, you're emphasized phrase "having to hard carry bads"? What are you talking about? I mean, generally, yes, that is the advised method for getting out of Elo hell... but your match history is exceptionally odd. I don't understand it much at all.

Your most recent loss is as Alistar support, and while I'd argue that you can even carry yourself to your proper Elo playing as support, it's harder to have a major impact on every match from that position--especially if the random ADC is clueless.

Just before that, you have an 8/7/5 loss as Graves. You had 243 cs in 41 minutes, so that's making a good effort. And while it sucks to lose, I think it's hard to argue that 8/7/5 is a remarkable scoreline that deserved a win. If your teammates were better, this is a scoreline that's good enough for your team to not lose. But if you're at a level where you need your teammates to play well in order to win, then aren't you at your proper Elo?

It's some of the other ranked games in your match history that confuse and bewilder me...

You have a 55+ minute game with Graves in which you went 3/1/3 and got 135 cs. Either Lolking is messing up, or that was an extraordinarily unremarkable 55+ minute match. And you WON.

There's another match in your history too where you went 5/2/8 as Ezreal with 88 cs and it took 55+ minutes. There must be some sort of error with Lolking on the time length of these two matches.


But t0ad5, you have a handful of matches in your history where you haven't necessarily played exceptionally well. You haven't played bad, don't get me wrong. You've played good. Good enough to win. But not good enough to carry. AND you've won these matches. You've played just well enough that the only way you could have won the match is by getting teammates who were also playing well. And in your recent match history, you've been winning these matches. Did you find Elo heaven or something?


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t0ad5

Senior Member

10-23-2012

I was answering the question the guy asked, in my opinion.

Elo heaven? No, still working out of the 12 games I was screwed over by, almost back to where I started when I picked rank back up.

The Ali game was terrible. Last pick. The ADC requested ali as support. ADC died at lvl 1 for no reason, then came back to do it again and the jungler fed them too (while I was getting wards), and again.... what can I do but hug the turret, or feed. Team *****es at eachother, the game was dumb. I must say the map was warded. I did what I could considering what I had to work with. This is why I try to not play support, but given the people on the team we would probably have lost anyway.

The 8/7/5 graves - show up for fights, do dmg, team gets beat, what do you want? I did my job as adc. Didn't chose the role, it is what was left when it was my turn to pick. At least this game was fun.

The 3/1/3 graves - other team was terrible and were dead before there were really any fightes. And, yeah, I think the time is wrong, this game they surrendered. Jayce that game was legendary 15/2 on my team. And the rest of the guys owned too, so there weren't really any fights as the other team was dead solo all the time. Could have easily been me stuck with these guys. Looks like my team was more people screwed over at some point and moving into a more suitable elo as well. Luck of the draw.

The 5/2/8 Ez game the other team surrender also, wasn't 55 mins. Looks like they are all 55 mins or something.

One you don't point out (or any of the games I did well in - 12/4/21 not good enough to carry?), the 2/1/4 Ahri was against a Talon, and I felt I did great not to feed, and was able to assist other lanes, while I didn't manage to secure the kill for myself (assists), I out farmed my opponent and shut him down when he tried to roam. As I was able to help the other lanes (Talon tried to roam after he figured out he couldn't kill me) and they were doing fine themselves already, the game didn't last long.

You were on vacation, and came back to troll me more?
I'm not asking for your advice. Why don't you worry about you.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

10-23-2012

I'm not trolling you t0ad5.

The problem with people who are "stuck" in Elo hell is that they make posts exactly like what you just made. They have a bucket full of excuses for every match, and they say "but clearly I'm good enough to carry! look at my 12/4/21 match!"

I'm not even trying to give advice. What I'm doing is analyzing the available match history of those people who believe in Elo hell in an effort to demonstrate to them that the idea of Elo hell that they hold in their mind is false.

I mean, you're missing my point. I would have made a greater effort to point out your 12/4/21 match had it been a loss, because had it been a loss, it would have been evidence against my case. But as it stands, it's not really much of evidence for anything (other than your ability to have a great match). You had a great matched, carried and won.

You argue that you're stuck in Elo hell... but you only have one match like that out of 10. If you truly belonged at a significantly higher Elo, you'd have 9 matches like that out of 10, not just 1.

But you're not stuck at an Elo significantly lower than where you belong. You as much admit this by stating "I felt I did great not to feed." When you're at the proper Elo bracket, sometimes that's all you CAN do. Just do your best to make sure that the enemy in your lane isn't getting fed, whether by kills or by CS.

But just look at your description of your match as Ahri against Talon. He wasn't able to out play you. You weren't able to outplay him. To me, it sounds like you guys were at about equal skill level. Why do you think you're not at the proper Elo?

I mean, what's the proper Elo to you?

I mean, if Elo works perfectly (and I know it's not a PERFECT system), then two players of identical skill level will have identical Elo. So, if you're at a similar skill level to your opponent, then the Elo system is working pretty good, right? The fact that he's your opponent means he got matched into the same lobby as you (albeit on the opposite team) because you have similar skill levels.

If this isn't Elo working properly, I don't know what is...

I mean, t0ad5, you DO have the occasional great game like your 12/4/21. You also have an occasional bad game. But most of your games are just good. Good, not great.

I mean, just look at your recent match history. You have 5 ranked wins, 2 ranked losses. You played well in all of those matches. But the fact that you have 5 wins to 2 losses means that over this 7 game period, you gained anywhere from 25-50 Elo, depending on how much each match was worth.

You increased your Elo, and you did it by mostly by playing above average (except for one great Morgana game). You increased your Elo (moving away from this supposed "Elo hell") without having to hard carry any bads, without any matches where you went 16/0/5 but lost anyway.

You're WINNING your games. That's what I don't get about any of your complaints.


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t0ad5

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
I'm not trolling you t0ad5.
I'm pretty sure that dragging my match into someone else's post again for providing my opinion on the matter, is trolling.

Quote:
The problem with people who are "stuck" in Elo hell is that they make posts exactly like what you just made. They have a bucket full of excuses for every match, and they say "but clearly -I'm good enough to carry! look at my 12/4/21 match!"
I said being "stuck" (read: placed) with bottom barrel people is elo hell, not that I am stuck there. You kept putting words in my mouth last time you did this too.
Instead I have suggested that I had a series of losses out of my control, which caused me to arrive in elo hell. I thought this was made clear last time you did the same ****: I'm working my way back up after stuff out of my control.

Quote:
I'm not even trying to give advice. What I'm doing is analyzing the available match history of those people who believe in Elo hell in an effort to demonstrate to them that the idea of Elo hell that they hold in their mind is false.
I am still of the opinion that elo hell is a place where people generally don't know how to play the game well (wards, map awarness, continuous terrible decisions, etc) - perhaps even outside one's of skill with the champions.

Quote:
You argue that you're stuck in Elo hell... but you only have one match like that out of 10. If you truly belonged at a significantly higher Elo, you'd have 9 matches like that out of 10, not just 1
No, see above.
Hard to completely carry a game as adc. You can show up, do your job, but are reliant on the rest of the team to do theirs. Again, it was the remaining role. And where did you to 9/10 when later you say 5/7?

Quote:
But you're not stuck at an Elo significantly lower than where you belong. You as much admit this by stating "I felt I did great not to feed." When you're at the proper Elo bracket, sometimes that's all you CAN do. Just do your best to make sure that the enemy in your lane isn't getting fed, whether by kills or by CS.
I have had problems with Talon in the past, and he is an anti caster, so it was a personal win for me. I outfarmed him and shut down his attempts to feed elsewhere. I can't say I am significantly lower than I should be, but I won't until I am consitantly challenged by my opponents (not just my team).

Quote:
But just look at your description of your match as Ahri against Talon. He wasn't able to out play you. You weren't able to outplay him. To me, it sounds like you guys were at about equal skill level. Why do you think you're not at the proper Elo?
Again, I said I was ablet outplay him by outfarming him and shutting down his attempts to kill my other lanes. Because I feel that I am not consistantly challenged by my opponents.

Quote:
I mean, what's the proper Elo to you?
I'll let you know when I feel I am there. I honestly seek only good games. Too old for epeen.

Quote:
I mean, if Elo works perfectly (and I know it's not a PERFECT system), then two players of identical skill level will have identical Elo. So, if you're at a similar skill level to your opponent, then the Elo system is working pretty good, right? The fact that he's your opponent means he got matched into the same lobby as you (albeit on the opposite team) because you have similar skill levels.
We are in the same lobby because I got screwed over several games and have to work back up; heck, he may have been too, but I feel I'm a better player than him and proved it. How many times do we have to do this?

Quote:
You're WINNING your games. That's what I don't get about any of your complaints.
I wasn't even complaining. I gave my description of what the guy was asking about. Well, I did complain about the tard who didn't want to work with the team but was playing ranked anyway.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by t0ad5 View Post
I'm pretty sure that dragging my match into someone else's post again for providing my opinion on the matter, is trolling.
It's not. People who complain about Elo hell provide this anecdotal evidence of "this 1 match i had this awesome score but still lost," so the best counter-argument to this anecdotal evidence is to just go check the facts. I check everyone who complains about Elo hell. I've never found anyone who consistently scores great but loses anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by t0ad5 View Post
I said being "stuck" (read: placed) with bottom barrel people is elo hell, not that I am stuck there. You kept putting words in my mouth last time you did this too.
Instead I have suggested that I had a series of losses out of my control, which caused me to arrive in elo hell. I thought this was made clear last time you did the same ****: I'm working my way back up after stuff out of my control.
The ongoing argument is whether or not "Elo hell" exists. Your argument that it does exist, and then you define its existence as a place where you're
Quote:
Originally Posted by t0ad5 View Post
"stuck" (read: placed) with bottom barrel people is elo hell
Yet you've climbed out of it and you're actively climbing farther out. You disprove your own evidence. You have no evidence for your own definition of "elo hell" which you claim to be real.


As I said, every post regarding Elo hell I see, I will look up the match history of players who claim the existence of Elo and I will post their match history on the forums. Using the match history of people who claim in Elo hell as evidence against their argument for Elo hell is not trolling. Just because I'm winning the argument and that upsets you doesn't mean I'm trolling. Match-history is a matter of public record. Even if Lolking didn't exist, I could easily look up your summoner name in my LoL client and get the same info. It's a matter of public record. If someone claims Elo hell exists and their stuck at an Elo lower than their supposed true skill level, I'm going to look up their match history. I'm STILL trying to find someone with excellent statistics, but a string of losses and a low Elo. It simply DOES NOT EXIST despite the anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence, by the way, is worthless and pointless. Actual evidence so easily disproves it in this case.


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t0ad5

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Hell is a state of mind - sorry, I don't believe in hell in general, like the religious place where you burn for all eternity.

Elo hell, to me, is a place where people suck at the game and aren't fun to play with. I would assume and hope they are mostly balanced at the lower end of things; elo works, right?

Quote:
Elo Hell is being screwed (12 games in a row with leavers/afk/trolls/etc) into being stuck with bottom of the barrel people, with which elo loss is perpetual.

With time and some luck you can get out. Just expect a lot of frustration due to the type of people down there, having to dodge champ select a lot due to trolls and people unwilling to work together to build a team, and having to hard carry bads.
And, dragging people into arguments while putting words in their mouth is pretty much the definition of trolling on messageboards.

*shrug*

Had fun.


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Energetic

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Some people don't understand sarcasm. What I am saying is Elo Hell in my opinion does not exist. If you were as pro as so many people say they are they wouldn't be down there to begin with!


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t0ad5

Senior Member

10-23-2012

I never claimed to be pro, but don't agree that "they wouldn't be down there to begin with" is always true.
I remember 4 of my placement matches:
1) I would say I didn't know how to play adc well. I remember buying 2 BF swords and having boots and being called out. I felt that I had played support enough to know how the lane works. I improved my adc ability before trying again.

2) I picked galio to counter a kass pick. I was doing well. I sent Kass running under his turret . Using noc ult, my junlger chased the lvl 6 kass, that I was beating, under his turret. Their jungler showed up mumu. I came back to try and assist my jungler to escape. Double kill for for kass into snowball roaming.

3) I picked rumble. Once it was last pick, he chose galio and said "top or feed" . I wasn't sure if we still lose elo for dodging at the time and figured it was better to try and lose than to just lose elo. I've learned to dodge trolls much better. I still think dodge mechanics punish the wrong people more often than not.

4) 4vs5, the guy never showed up and I was 2vs1 adc at bot.

I would say my play caused 1 of 4 of these losses. I never claimed to be pro, only that I have been often unlucky (I've had a team unable to win an early 5vs4), and I'm still trying to get to a place where I feel I belong.

Sorry, I assumed the you in your post was referring to me, since I was last to post.