Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


New Twisted Treeline Explanations for Changes

1
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DemolitionDean

Senior Member

10-21-2012

So we all know about the new twisted treeline changes from the PBE and information being passed around and a lot of people are aggravated with changes because they've played so much of the original twisted treeline. I wanted to try to explain the changes the best I could, since I think I have a pretty good idea of what motivated the changes (though I know we would all like a Red post I don't think this will happen until the changes to the new twisted treeline are final, because what's the use on asking the forums what they think of something that isn't finalized yet?)
Anyways here we go...

1) The wall between spawn and the rest of the "base". On the old twisted treeline it was not only possible but quite easy for players to "turtle" and stall games by gaining aggro on minions/superminions and leading them into the fountain laser for easy clearing, the new wall eliminates this issue, while still providing a safe fountain from enemy players. Teams will now have to deal with invading minions and super minions themselves. (I don't believe using the fountain laser for turtling was ever part of the intended design.)

2) Walls thickened and rearranged to give less advantage to champions with built in dashes or blinks (and flash). And speed shrine added in the middle of the map. Ganking top lane in the old twisted treeline was made especially difficult because of the ability of some champions to blink or flash into the dragon den or into the center of the map to safety. By changing the walls it will be harder for champions to escape a well coordinated gank (though blink champions will still have their intended advantage in escaping). This will also increase the number of champions picked since blinks are not so important. The speed shrine allows champions to access the entire map at the same speed as the old twisted treeline without jumping through walls.


3)Jungle changes. The old jungle had a couple different problems with it which have all been addressed.

1 Random spawning, before the game started players had no idea what camps would be spawning on their side of the map and different camps yield more/less experience/gold and some were more difficult/easier than others. The new jungle spawns the same way every time bringing consistency to the jungle.
2. Some camps were VERY difficult to clear at early levels which severely limited champion picks if you wanted to run a full-time jungler. By making the camps easier and less variable, many more champions will be able to jungle from level 1 just like in Summoners rift.
3. The jungle on old twisted treeline was very spread-out and made ganking bottom lane less probable. Solution, we put all of the minor jungle mobs in the middle of the map, ganking different lanes will be just as easy but they still retain their differences through different enterances to the jungle.
4. Not enough mobs for junglers on both teams to keep up with their teammates without heavy ganking or invading (don't know if this has been fixed or if it is intended to be this way)
5. Gray/Black/Red buff too strong, it has been removed
4)New items were added to make the selection of champions usable in Twisted Treeline greater. These will help give some extra strength to types of characters that have been traditionally weak in 3vs3 (however they will need to be balanced changed so they don't also make the OP champions even stronger)

5) Removal of wards. Since twisted treeline is so small the map could easily be controlled through a winning team and just 2 wards. These 2 wards (1 at dragon and 1 at red) could basically secure a victory by eliminating the surprise of any plays made by the enemy team. Good warding contributed to a hard snowball factor. I realize that there is a lot of fighting and counterplay that comes from good warding and trying to eliminate enemy map vision. However I think the intended effect is for players to fight over real map control objectives rather than just vision. Which brings us to the next and most controversial change

6)Addition of altars. With the removal of wards and some of the major jungle buffs. The players needed some new objectives to fight over. Having 1 altar will give a gold buff letting champions scale into the later items and more items faster than they used to be (which will make some late game champions more viable) and having 2 altars will give a damage buff similar to the Old dragon buff. making the altars important to fight over and contest.

7) Ebonmaw is too weak especially at early levels and gives too much for defeating it. Ebonmaw has been replaced with Vilemaw, a giant spider that does more damage and is much harder to kill. It gives about the same amount of gold but won't be as accessible (without high risk) in earlier stages of the game. The buff it gives is similar to Baron on summoners rift which allows for sustained pushing to end the game.

Problems that I still see with the new twisted treeline that I hope are addressed:
1) Too much emphasis on a level 1 fight. Especially with the new altars becoming available early I find it hard to justify picking some mages because of their terrible level 1 fighting capabilities. While AD champions scale off of primarily items, mages get most of their damage from leveling up and until they have all of their abilities they are very weak. Having a Vladimir, a Ryze, or even a Malzahar at level 1 is pretty much useless for a team fight. They have 1 ability on a long cooldown and are pretty squishy. I think this can be improved by not forcing a level 1 fight that can lead to a snowball for the whole game, or by starting the game off at level 3 like in dominion, to let mages get some more abilities and tankiness.

2) I think the Altars are available to capture too often, while I like the idea of having objectives to fight over and potential trade-offs for contesting or not contesting an objective (ex. let them take your altar but push down a tower or two while they are distracted.) I think 90 seconds is too often and changes the pace and feel of the game significantly. HOWEVER I don't think the cooldown on altars should be too high otherwise one team can snowball with their altar buff after 1 early victory. Possible solution is that the altar buff lasts for 90 seconds but the altar becomes available for capture every 3 min?

Thanks for reading and feel free to speculate on Riot's reasons for certain changes or more problems you see on the old twisted treeline that have been fixed or could be fixed with the new model. As I see it there were a lot of problems with the old map and given the opportunity to help fix them we should jump at that!

TL:DR I think there are reasons for the changes and that ultimately they will be a good thing for Twisted Treeline after some fine-tuning. The Twisted Treeline community should be focused on giving constructive feedback to fine-tune the new map and make it the best it can be rather than resist the change and complain about riot ruining your favorite map.

lol wall of text...
Thanks,
DemolitionDean


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PDiddy

Senior Member

10-21-2012

similar gold for VM?

not really. EM gave 290, VM gives 190.


also the alters give 80 global gold as well.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Unicorn of Doom

Senior Member

10-23-2012

I like your proposal on the change to the altars. They should definitely have a cooldown as to not allow snowballing. 90 seconds is too short, not to keep but to change your priority. I do get the idea behind it, having to fight over alters is what is going to cause more team fights but at the cost of what made twisted treeline fun. Do what OP just said because he at least knows what he is talking about regarding altars if you must include them.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

fiddlesticksssss

Senior Member

10-23-2012

That is a pretty good solution. It doesn't make the altars a MUST as far as objective, but if you are not behind its not something you can simply ignore.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

joglove

Junior Member

10-23-2012

It would be nice if there could be a ranked 3vs3!!!! ive been waiting a while now and i love 3vs3!!!! i usually play 3vs3 if not im playing a ranked game... so to be able to play ranked with the map that i enjoy the most would be cool... although im not thrilled with all of the changes with twisted treeline i think i everyone will adapt and like it a lot more than the old one!!!! Ty riot for you hard work and dedication for keeping this game fun and exciting.

oh and one more thing... it would be nice to play a game and not laggggg lol... it would be cool if something could be done about the server lag! ty


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Nedry

Junior Member

10-23-2012

5) Removal of wards.

Don't agree with this at all folks.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

OnlyBotLane

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
joglove:
It would be nice if there could be a ranked 3vs3!!!! ive been waiting a while now and i love 3vs3!!!! i usually play 3vs3 if not im playing a ranked game... so to be able to play ranked with the map that i enjoy the most would be cool... although im not thrilled with all of the changes with twisted treeline i think i everyone will adapt and like it a lot more than the old one!!!! Ty riot for you hard work and dedication for keeping this game fun and exciting.

oh and one more thing... it would be nice to play a game and not laggggg lol... it would be cool if something could be done about the server lag! ty

There is ranked 3v3.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Brodhi

Senior Member

10-24-2012

Quote:
DemolitionDean:

Problems that I still see with the new twisted treeline that I hope are addressed:
1) Too much emphasis on a level 1 fight. Especially with the new altars becoming available early I find it hard to justify picking some mages because of their terrible level 1 fighting capabilities. While AD champions scale off of primarily items, mages get most of their damage from leveling up and until they have all of their abilities they are very weak. Having a Vladimir, a Ryze, or even a Malzahar at level 1 is pretty much useless for a team fight. They have 1 ability on a long cooldown and are pretty squishy. I think this can be improved by not forcing a level 1 fight that can lead to a snowball for the whole game, or by starting the game off at level 3 like in dominion, to let mages get some more abilities and tankiness.

2) I think the Altars are available to capture too often, while I like the idea of having objectives to fight over and potential trade-offs for contesting or not contesting an objective (ex. let them take your altar but push down a tower or two while they are distracted.) I think 90 seconds is too often and changes the pace and feel of the game significantly. HOWEVER I don't think the cooldown on altars should be too high otherwise one team can snowball with their altar buff after 1 early victory. Possible solution is that the altar buff lasts for 90 seconds but the altar becomes available for capture every 3 min?



1) You should watch some Shadow Isles streams sometimes, especially Sam's. I saw a game today he played where their team comp was Kayle/Shaco/Ryze. That is about as terrible a level 1 as you can have. But guess what? They stomped mid-game and won by 25 minutes. Level 1 fights do not matter if you know what you are doing. More often than not when I play ranked, I specifically try to avoid level 1 fights, because you never really know what can happen and it is a bad idea to let games get too snowbally that early. Level 1 teamfights are not at ALL emphasized in the current map. In fact, if anything is emphasized, it is cautious early play for explosive, risky mid-game play because of how easy it is to counter-gank and ace a team.

2) Altars are fine the way they are. Because Vilemaw is so far north and spawns so late in the game, you can't make Altars only spawn every 3 minutes. That means you only get to fight over Altars twice before Vilemaw spawns (because even if one team aces another, level 1 respawns are so fast you can't take the first altar before they respawn). That basically makes it so that for about a 3+ minutes while the altars on are cooldown, afk farm champions will generally come out on top, especially if they have the +4 gold altar. And besides, once you get later in the game, if you see the enemy team going for your altar, you can easily walk over and do Vilemaw. It wouldn't be very fair for you to be unable to retake your Altar for the entire duration of Vilemaw's buff, especially when you worked so hard to steal it under your opponent's noses (and not only that, but they now have a comparable buff for the next 90 seconds that you can do nothing about for 3 minutes instead of 1.5).

Just my thoughts.


1