Nunu the Jungle Yeti: Early Game Ganking, Late Game Tanking

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sbudeeG

Senior Member

10-17-2010

Fail dude... Nunu's ult is way better than Galio's... Nunu's ult takes the CC off your carries... Nunu's ult can be used while in bushes to lure and destroy. Nunu's ult does everything you could ever want it to do without making him overpowered. Stop comparing the two of them, you can't really do it, they are two different kinds of champs.


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Bigmantree

Member

10-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathas View Post
At 1500+ they throw exactly 2 interrupts at you, one to break Banshee's and the other to interrupt, most of the time its by the same champ.
You give far too much credit to 1500+ teams. This simply isn't the case. Having played over 50 games on Nunu in the 1500s to 1700s and 100+ in unranked, both in solo and 5v5 I know this to be the case. In ranked solo q this never happens and in 5v5 it does happen about 50% of the time.

Guess what though, this is amazingly easily countered. Your teammates have stuns, pick one to stun/silence the guy chosen to stop your ult in 5v5. Like I said in solo you needn't worry. Stun the focuser and this again usually makes the enemy team panic, if not always. Even for the few good teams that pick a backup stunner this just adds extra time for your ult to go off. The fact is if they don't react immediately, which requires just throwing your cc at Nunu, you will get a decent duration ult off. It's generally pretty obvious who is going to be 'chosen' to interrupt you if anyone is. Having one person control them from your team means that strategy just doesn't work as effectively.

You are using the enemy teams ability to work together efficiently and plan ahead as logic against Nunu's ult, but ignoring his own team's ability to plan and work together. Anyway, any Nunu who goes in and ults when all of their cc is up is a bad Nunu.It is an opportunistic ult.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathas View Post
A fully charged ult is a lot of damage, no doubt. But with how many champs have interrupts how often do you get off a fully charged ult? Almost no team would stack MR just to counter Nunu, but what boots do you buy 99% of the games? And even with that little MR from boots combined with an easily interrupted ultimate equals pitiful damage.
The little MR from boots makes very little difference in the overall damage of Nunu's ult. In fact every thing I say about it basically just assumes they have Mercury Treads. My point was not at all that you would get off frequent full duration ults. This was in response to you saying that they could simply 'ignore' Nunu's ult because he isn't threat enough to have ccs thrown at him. Perhaps I misunderstood your statement, but it read a lot like 'Nunu's ult does such **** damage they don't have to bother ccing it.' I stress again though, that in most situations the primary role of Absolute Zero is not to do damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathas View Post
You can't escape Galio's ult is one of the biggest advantages he has over Nunu. People won't use their summoner abilities to escape it they will use the abilities to escape your team. End result = summoner abilities on cooldown. Also your Kassadin just ate their entire team trying to run away.
I completely agree that not being able to escape Galio's ult is probably it's biggest advantage. This doesn't change the fact that the two ults have separate roles. This is not a 'Amg Nunu ult bettar than teh Galio ultz' argument. Galio's ult is one of the strongest in the game. However, that does not make Nunu's ult suddenly piss poor like so many people seem to think. The fact is a good Galio ult will likely result in the blowing of a summoner spell or two, yes. However this simply isn't with the frequency or reliability of a well placed Nunu ult. The differences in cooldowns I mentioned also makes a vast differenc ein this department. The point also remains that any castable cc/ult interrupts remain off cooldown after a Galio ult whereas they don't after a Nunu ult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathas View Post
Maybe at 900 ELO they will focus a tank after all his abilities are on cooldown. Also Blood Boil is awesome.
Yes, Blood Boil is indeed awesome. Again though, I can't say anything more than it does happen, especially in solo q. Getting in the face of squishies makes it even more likely to happen. Even a tanky Nunu at 50% or below life looks yummy, especially when everyone else on his team is 100% and he's sitting smack dab in the middle of your team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathas View Post
How long does it take to burst down a carry champ? Less than 2.5 seconds? The difference is a live carry who will destroy your team vs a dead carry and a loss of multiple towers.
I forgot to research the cooldowns but even so, it only takes one solid team fight to pretty much win the game.
You're right, Galio's ult rocks and kills carries. This is just further support that the two ults serve different purposes. This is still you trying to make this into a Galio ult > Nunu ult argument. That is not what this is about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathas View Post
Uhhh, no. 2-3 flashes + ghost + flash equivalent = 4-5 champs. No champ is going to flash away and THEN decide to interrupt your ult after they escape taking zero damage. After they have wasted their summoner abilities what happens when you ultimate next?
You take the maximum from a range I give and a list that was meant to show the variety of options the enemy could use, then say 'no way this would happen!' Maybe ghost, 2-3 flashes, 3-4 interrupts. This was a list of the possibilities, not a combined set of spells all used on one ult. At least one of those first three does consistently occur, usually some combination of them (as I was attempting to say, which could have been unclear). Adding up the total cooldowns was just a method of showing the difference a Nunu ult could make and might have made my argument confusing. The point remains, though, that you are exchanging far greater total cooldowns for your ult than you are losing.

Even assuming two flashes and one ghost are used though, I have had many situations in which another 2-3 ccs get thrown my way, either by those still in the ult or by those trying to save those still in the ult. Also keep in mind that mid to late game I very rarely get fewer than three people in my ult. It probably breaks down something like 10% less than 3, 20% 3, 40% 4 and 30% 5. Your ult is your best friend, especially near enemy towers. This isn't saying I get my ult off on that number, only that I begin it with that number in my ult.

I am quite aware of the heroes that are hard counters and soft counters to Nunu's ult. I play against many of them daily, and yes there are a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathas View Post
Those that survive can use their cds on whoever they choose.

Putting all(2) of the enemies spells on cooldown != to having 2 dead champs on the enemy team plain and simple.
Whereas those that survive Nunu's ult do so because they blew their CDs. Wow, you are completely right! Putting the enemies spells on cooldown isn't equal to potentially killing two champions/ccing them/massive damage! It's almost like that's what I was trying to say!

Again, I am not arguing that Nunu's ult is better, only that it is different and has a greater variety of uses. Galio's ult on a scale of 1-10 is probably a 9 or 10, it is an absolutely fantastic ult. Nunu's is more like a 7 or 8, it is a good ult that can be great when used correctly. Just because one ult is a 10 does not mean an 8 is weak.Even comparing the two in this very general way is rather pointless because they serve different purposes.

I haven't even discussed the other functions of Nunu's ult, as a method of cutting off escape roots, preventing the enemy from chasing your dying team etc. The two simply do not serve the same functions. This doesn't make either one worse or better, it simply makes them two distinct ults used for distinct purposes.

A Sidenote: I am very curious as to where your ideas about how Nunu's ult is treated in ranked games are coming from. Based on your profile you have no ranked games played at all, much less any on Nunu or Galio. This makes it hard to consider your point of view and experience in ranked, which seems so clearly different from mine I can't help but think it is fabricated. If this is not the case, please correct me and point me to your real profile.

-Bigmantree out


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Alex Pan

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Senior Member

10-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmantree View Post
-Banshee's veil is an all but required item.
That means that Banshee's Veil is bad.


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Bigmantree

Member

10-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Pan View Post
That means that Banshee's Veil is bad.
Banshee's being required has no effect on how good the item itself is. It does limit the flexibility of Nunu's build, but if anything the fact that it is a required item means it is too good for Nunu.


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Drathas

Junior Member

10-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmantree View Post
Anyway, any Nunu who goes in and ults when all of their cc is up is a bad Nunu.It is an opportunistic ult.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmantree View Post
Second, use your ult to make the enemy team blow their cooldowns on you.
I know what you mean by these, but it looks a little confusing. Gotta know the right time to do each one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmantree View Post
but it read a lot like 'Nunu's ult does such **** damage they don't have to bother ccing it.' I stress again though, that in most situations the primary role of Absolute Zero is not to do damage.
What I said was MR combined with an easily interrupted ultimate equals pitiful damage. It is extremely easy to even accidentally cancel his ultimate. If they have champs with an aoe interrupt, your ultimate becomes less of a threat because they can just aoe interrupt and still cancel you and hit who they want to. Especially with those tanky/dps champions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmantree View Post
You're right, Galio's ult rocks and kills carries. This is just further support that the two ults serve different purposes.
Galio's ult directly kills carries with CC and damage, Nunu's indirectly kills carries because they loose the CC support and get focused. This is my entire point. Also, Galio + Nunu is almost a guaranteed triple kill at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmantree View Post
You take the maximum from a range I give and a list that was meant to show the variety of options the enemy could use, then say 'no way this would happen!'
I read this as you saying this happened every time you used it, my bad.

My original point was that Galio's Ult and Nunu's Ult are comparable because they both create openings for your carries and the rest of your team to blow people up. While Nunu forces them to choose to actually use the spells or take damage, Galio just forces them to hope they are not focused down during the ult. Can't use your exhaust when your dead.

My experience goes all the way back to open beta. I have actually never played a ranked game only normal. I do not need to play ranked games to be able to read and compare two champions that I have played numerous times.

I hope I explained myself better in this post. As for your guide, I would like to see you post a video of your jungle paths, specifically doing dragon as early as possible.


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Seasonal

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Senior Member

10-18-2010

have you ever considered having 2 points in consume and ice blast and then maxing out blood boil because giving 65% attk speed to your carry can just be insane mid game.


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Bigmantree

Member

10-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathas View Post
I know what you mean by these, but it looks a little confusing. Gotta know the right time to do each one.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathas View Post
What I said was MR combined with an easily interrupted ultimate equals pitiful damage. It is extremely easy to even accidentally cancel his ultimate. If they have champs with an aoe interrupt, your ultimate becomes less of a threat because they can just aoe interrupt and still cancel you and hit who they want to. Especially with those tanky/dps champions.
Well then we are on the same page here, the average Nunu ult does do little noticeable damage, but that is only because that is not it's purpose (unlike Galio's). In terms of AoE interrupts (such as Sona ult, Morgana ult, Janna ult, and Cho'Gath silence) this is where positioning come in and is so very important. The hardest thing, I think, about Nunu's ult is getting the correct positioning for it. This is why flash is so fantastic on Nunu. When ulting against a team with any AoE interrupts you have to try to get in a position that faces the champion(s) with said abilities away from the rest of your team. This really isn't as hard as it sounds but is just one more thing you need to think about.

While MR stacking of course hurts the damage of Absolute Zero, it's hardly by an apocalyptic amount. The fact is if the enemy is stacking MR against your team it's you team comp's fault, because you don't have enough physical damage. Besides, the base damage of a Nunu ult at level 18 is 1125. Even after MR that is a lot of damage, and their carries can't just be stacking MR or they just won't be doing damage. MR stacking hurts the damage of Galio's ult as well.

Also, ulting near a Sona or Janna can force them to blow that AoE interrupt at a non-opportune time, and set those ults on cooldown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathas View Post
Galio's ult directly kills carries with CC and damage, Nunu's indirectly kills carries because they loose the CC support and get focused. This is my entire point. Also, Galio + Nunu is almost a guaranteed triple kill at least.

My original point was that Galio's Ult and Nunu's Ult are comparable because they both create openings for your carries and the rest of your team to blow people up. While Nunu forces them to choose to actually use the spells or take damage, Galio just forces them to hope they are not focused down during the ult. Can't use your exhaust when your dead.
This just seems like a very inconsequential argument to me. Ultimately, all ults are about either protecting your team (so they can kill the enemy) or hurting the enemy (so your team can kill them) whether directly or indirectly. Even more generally, all ults are about allowing your team to kill the enemy's Nexus before they kill yours. Janna's ult indirectly kills the carries by healing her team back to full so they can reengage or turn around a losing fight. Rammus's ult helps kill the carries directly by dealing damage to anyone near him. While all ults ultimately work to allow the killing of the other team's Nexus in some way, the method used to do so varies significantly.Yes, both ults create openings for your team to engage or kill the enemy carries, lots of ults and abilities do. However, the method, duration, type, and cost of these openings are all different. The two simply aren't similar enough to merit the frequent comparisons between them.

Everyone seems to just see two facts about these ults:
1. They have a Large AoE radius
2. They are channeled

From this everyone draws the conclusion that the ults serve the same purpose when they only do in the most general of senses. Nunu's ult is much more defensive/utility based (in most instances) whereas Galio's is much more offensive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathas View Post
I read this as you saying this happened every time you used it, my bad.
That was my fault, that part of my post was rather unclear as I noticed when I read through it a second time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathas View Post
My experience goes all the way back to open beta. I have actually never played a ranked game only normal. I do not need to play ranked games to be able to read and compare two champions that I have played numerous times.
I was not implying at all that you needed to have played ranked in order to discuss these two champions, only that if you hadn't played ranked many of your statements about how these champions are treated in ranked games are void of meaning. Specifically this was in regard to your statements about how people react to Nunu's ult in 1500+ among others. It just seems strange that you would make such claims without having actually experienced the situations you were referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathas View Post
I hope I explained myself better in this post. As for your guide, I would like to see you post a video of your jungle paths, specifically doing dragon as early as possible.
You did, though I still disagree with most of what you've said. In regards to the guide I'd love to post a video and may eventually. The only problem is I'm stuck in Australia with pretty poor internet and a slowly dying computer, so who knows when it will happen.

My earliest dragons going directly off the strategy from this guide are usually lvl 3 dragon after a successful gank, with the help of bottom lane. If you are asking about earliest possible dragon with Nunu I can successfully do level 2 dragon after getting only Golem in the jungle with the right starter items, but it's not really worth the risk.

In most games I get dragon around level 4-5 sometimes as late as level 7 sometimes as early as level 3. It all depends on how successful ganks are and the state of the enemy jungler. The way I do dragon is pretty variable and reactionary to the state of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seasonal View Post
have you ever considered having 2 points in consume and ice blast and then maxing out blood boil because giving 65% attk speed to your carry can just be insane mid game.
Hey Seasonal. I believe I mentioned this somewhere in the guide, if not it was an oversight on my part and is in some post of mine elsewhere. If you have a carry who is getting fed early on it can definitely be worth it to max out Blood Boil first. However unless a physical carry who greatly benefits from it (Twitch being key among these) is getting fed it is usually safer to max it out last.


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Telandra

Senior Member

10-18-2010

ballsy


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Seasonal

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Senior Member

10-18-2010

k, thanks for the reply


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CosMoe

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Senior Member

10-19-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmantree View Post
My average ult (assuming all enemy abilities off cd) results in 2-3 flashes, maybe one ghost, one champion flash equivalent, and a minimum of 3-4 silences/stuns/interrupts. That's around 720-920 total seconds of cooldowns exchanged for one 90 second cooldown.
Seriously, you need to stream that.
Having had more than 600 matches as Nunu this is something I can only believe when I see it.
To me, this occurs once in a blue moon, and only if I play with a full premade which knows how to bait the enemy team into my bush.


I have tried your proposed 9/21/0 masteries and found a way to solo Dragon quite early. In the long run, defensive masteries are indeed better and the reduced damage you take while jungling is quite helpful. Getting an early Heart of Gold from your starting Cloth Armor is also better than getting a Mardred's Razor (for Wriggle's later on).