Twisted Treeline: Growing Out of the Old - Initial Analysis

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Takhuan

Senior Member

10-20-2012

So many life steal items in the game.


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fiddlesticksssss

Senior Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
You lost a team fight not too long ago and the enemy has used the numbers advantage to push for a team objective: the altar. Let's say both teams are at the same skill level. Whoever that did not die, may be close to death so after capturing the altar, they have to back off or risk being caught out. During this time of teleporting back to base, they will not have made full benefit of their altar because they're at a weakened state and unable to risk farming or get killed. Fast forward, solo laners have returned to their lane and jungler has returned into the jungle. How much of an advantage has been gained so far? Not much.
****ed up. You said "i lost the team fight, but apparently they are weak and have to go back to base" Lets say it wasn't messed up. So i just lost the team fight and i am weak, they caught both of the altars. They proceed to kill jungle, and push lanes. Then they go back to base. For now we have 90 seconds to wait for our altar to come back. Lets try to fight for their altar. Ok, **** they just backed they bought black torch and van dam's pillager. We just got aced. They clear jungle again, push lanes and take top tower. Now we are going to try and farm a bit. We stick to our 3 jungle creeps only and try to catch up on items. Oh wait 1 of the random pushed the lanes. Enemy Ezreal just came out and pushed the 2 waves that were heading in. Got half a wave before essence fluxing away when we tried to gank. Altars are back up. We try to capture it, see a bang to our left, and then next thing you know anivia just flash frost ulted. Now ez ult comes through, it just did 550 damage (extra 50 from 2 altars). Aced again. How much gold is gained. Well now they have 5 core items and are harassing our bot turret. See how this is playing out. Out of 30~ games this is EXACTLY how it plays out. Not same champs ofc. 1 team will get both altars, and get the gold bonus. They clear jungle for not a lot of gold. Say only 1 person cleared all 6. They only got 64 gold. Not a lot ok ok. Then we went for their altar, but saw they had new shiny items from the won team fight earlier. We just lost and that 1 guy got a double kill + all of the camps again. So say you are only getting 200 gold per champ kill because they have not gotten a kill in a while. that is 472 gold. Starts to get bigger now. Still seems like its not a lot. Say you are trying to turtle now, and quit going for the altars. Over 30 minutes they would amass around 500-1000 gold just from the altar bonus, not including what vilemaw gives "cuz idk how much he gives." Man having both altars sure does put you ahead by quiet a bit now. The extra 10% damage sure did help in those fights 2. 50 seems small, but i have live with 15 hp before. Put that extra 10% and i just died.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
If the skill cap was much wider and the team fight does end disastrously for one team, maybe that team deserves to lose. What's wrong with that? If the team that lost the altar but only lost a team fight due to a bad mistake and considered to be more skilled than the other team, they still have a chance to make a comeback.

Or what if one team comp just scales better to mid-late game than the other? Gold bonus does not translate into guaranteed win. And what's not to say that you can recap your own altar and capture theirs later on?
First one-THAT IS TERRIBLE YOU ARE AN ASS HOLE RIOT WOULD NEVER HIRE YOU. Why? Enemy team has a bad start so you said they are not allowed to win now. They are not allowed the ability the come back because you had a impeccable start. Skill doesn't always determine if you win. I have been much better player than some people on old TT, but even when i make a mistake they capitalize, and those 5 successful ganks i pulled off, just got a loss. Why? Because they worked together and didn't surrender. So your saying i pulled of those good 5 ganks, and now they are not allowed to win because of it. Shame on you.

Starting from Or - if a comp scales better mid to late game, then having both altars will mean the world. They can buy items faster, and end up helping GG the game by 15 minutes. If you actually manage to capture your own altar, because the enemy is at vilemaw, or you know they just backed, then good. They won't get the ability to slip farther ahead, as long as you make good use of your buff too. However in 90 seconds it will be contested, and you lost it the first time. I doubt in 90 seconds you would of gotten good enough items to fight against the items they bought from the ace they just got on you.

I understand where you are coming from. You like the idea of the altars, and you want to keep all of them. However they are really powerful right now. So powerful that they alone can in fact help end a game. People hate van dam's pillager, well those 2 aces both the ADs have it now. What do? Try to build armor sacrificing your damage, and they will still get farther ahead because of it. The altars are flawed dude, If riot wants this map to leave PBE, then at least nerf the altars, some of the items, and make it its own map.

Edit: read the rest of your post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
Also about the lord van damm, its very possible that the item will be nerfed heavily later on as the beta progresses. This is not a map specific problem but the item itself..
Maybe, i myself have not found it to be that big of an issue, however i do not focus on how op items are that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
Way easy? What are you running? Champion composition plays a lot into how 1v2 matchups play out to be. Does your top lane have any awareness that his opponent is missing from lane and possibly going towards bottom for a gank? It is a lot easier for your top lane to arrive on your side of bottom lane than it is for their top lane to arrive on your side of bottom lane. I say your side of bottom lane because it is very common for a 1v2 matchup to push to your tower. So... farm under tower. Make sure you get the experience and stay 1 level ahead of their champions so when both your jungler and yourself engage in a 2v2 fight, you both have a level advantage on them.
You do understand this is solo queue we are talking about. You act like a lot of people listen. There is no solo ranked, so people usually play as they please because its "normals". So team comp is 50% of the time out of the question. I have no idea if my top lane has awareness, he is a random that solo queue put me with. Yeah a 1v2 will push to the tower. Depending on who it is, most likely the 1v2 will make sure to kill the solo laner too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
So.. wait... what kind of dumb jungler goes into enemy jungle to capture the altar by himself? Why would you overextend into an enemy jungle when you know it is going to be dangerous? Doesn't make sense..
Idk dude you tell me. As far as i read, the jungler is focusing on capping and ganking. So he would get ganked pretty hard. You tried to say this is a heavily early game laning, i am arguing, that you won't be spending as much time in lane as you seem to exaggerate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
Again, mathematically, considering how much items you might have at 10 minutes, 10% is not a lot. AP carry at 10 minutes might have 50 AP with +5 AP bonus from the +10% bonus AP from altar but you need to consider how much that translate into damage. Let's say Ahri's Orb of Deception: scaling of 0.6 so 0.6 of that 5 AP is about 3 points of extra damage. Real big damage there. Yes it will be a lot more effective late game but by late game, the game should be ending not stall fest. I have already said that Black Torch needs some adjustment and Riot has posted that they are looking into it
I would be surprised to see ahri atm. A lot of games are anivia and cassio. That anivia wall is pretty strong. Who knows how much ap they will have at 10 minutes. You will have fought for the altar at least 3 times depending on how good each team is. So if you fought 3 times and they won, they could easily have 100 ap, which yes is only 10 ap, still more damage than you probably have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
I'm looking at your argument and I do not see any point presented by you to state why you shouldn't defend the altar. Cause... you don't like it? It is a team game. Why wouldn't you help your team and defend it? If your team is not helping you win games then why play league of legends? League of Legends is ALL ABOUT TEAM PLAY. You also neglect that hextech sweeper grants a passive to your spells that when your spell hits an enemy, a true sight debuff is applied to them.
That last one this is responding too, is responding to the wriggle lantern, hextech sweeper and, soul lantern argument. The passive is probably great. Again, i don't take the 1800 gold to build it unless i already have my other items. Still would be better to have wards instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
edit: Very nice, calling me an ******* then deleting your post.
What?

tl;dr for other people, i really don't like altars, and don't want old TT replaced with this new TT of capture the altar.


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Pk is 1337

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Senior Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
what are you talking about. I'm level 30 1000~ games with only silver in TT ranked and silver in SR ranked. Wtf? Let alone its not the damage. If you control both altars you also are the only team getting the extra gold. So therefor puts you farther ahead and the van dam pillager you seem to cry about (that isn't that big of a problem) is bought even quicker. Controlling both altars slowly puts you farther and farther ahead (kinda like a snowball slowly gets bigger and bigger, weird), they are so important you can't ignore them. They act as free wards as well, sometimes for some reason catching sight of you even if you don't pass over it. Regardless, if riot listens to the polls or not, they should be getting changed to minions at the least minions on top of altars, since right now the polls favor creeps over altars. Wtf is a knee-jerk? Regardless, i can tell this is a thread full of trolls, who refuse to actually help devise a solution since more people than you actually hate the altars, but wants to keep them. Instead of raging at me for "not having a level 30 account", you could join "the altars thread" in devising a solution of what to do, OR vote that shivering isle is its own map, so you can keep your ****ty altars, and i can play a TT with actual strategy.
As you can see below your far from level 30 so please dont lie about your stats


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fiddlesticksssss

Senior Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pk is 1337 View Post
As you can see below your far from level 30 so please dont lie about your stats
Please add my main account Dreage as a friend. I will gladly say anything you want, and repeat it back on this forums. I said my FORUM account got banned in BETA, because back then any type of curse word, depending who saw it would be banned sometimes.

Edit: you can also barley see "sorry for quality idk how to make it bigger" the ip gains on that match history in the pictures. No go look at your friends account from yours....You will not be able to see what ip gains he got per game.


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Pk is 1337

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Senior Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
Please add my main account Dreage as a friend. I will gladly say anything you want, and repeat it back on this forums. I said my FORUM account got banned in BETA, because back then any type of curse word, depending who saw it would be banned sometimes.

Edit: you can also barley see "sorry for quality idk how to make it bigger" the ip gains on that match history in the pictures. No go look at your friends account from yours....You will not be able to see what ip gains he got per game.

amagawd i got caught pls add my main acct scarra or iwdominate or hotshotgg pls


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fiddlesticksssss

Senior Member

10-20-2012

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Originally Posted by Pk is 1337 View Post
amagawd i got caught pls add my main acct scarra or iwdominate or hotshotgg pls
Tell me then, how do i prove my account is my account? If you can't tell me then go troll somewhere else please.


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Para

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Senior Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
****ed up. You said "i lost the team fight, but apparently they are weak and have to go back to base" Lets say it wasn't messed up. So i just lost the team fight and i am weak, they caught both of the altars. They proceed to kill jungle, and push lanes. Then they go back to base. For now we have 90 seconds to wait for our altar to come back. Lets try to fight for their altar. Ok, **** they just backed they bought black torch and van dam's pillager. We just got aced. They clear jungle again, push lanes and take top tower. Now we are going to try and farm a bit. We stick to our 3 jungle creeps only and try to catch up on items. Oh wait 1 of the random pushed the lanes. Enemy Ezreal just came out and pushed the 2 waves that were heading in. Got half a wave before essence fluxing away when we tried to gank. Altars are back up. We try to capture it, see a bang to our left, and then next thing you know anivia just flash frost ulted. Now ez ult comes through, it just did 550 damage (extra 50 from 2 altars). Aced again. How much gold is gained. Well now they have 5 core items and are harassing our bot turret. See how this is playing out. Out of 30~ games this is EXACTLY how it plays out. Not same champs ofc.
Ok first of all... you are jumping way ahead with hypotheticals. You automatically assume that after the first team fight, they automatically have enough gold to pick up those specific items. Can you honestly say that after a single team fight you have that much gold to pick up all those items?

Secondly, why are you going after their altars? Invading their jungling has risks - you are losing experience by not laning and potentially forcing another team fight that is not in your favour. Why not farm the pushed lane and freeze it on your side? You're not making sense with your hypotheticals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
1 team will get both altars, and get the gold bonus. They clear jungle for not a lot of gold. Say only 1 person cleared all 6. They only got 64 gold. Not a lot ok ok. Then we went for their altar, but saw they had new shiny items from the won team fight earlier. We just lost and that 1 guy got a double kill + all of the camps again. So say you are only getting 200 gold per champ kill because they have not gotten a kill in a while. that is 472 gold. Starts to get bigger now. Still seems like its not a lot. Say you are trying to turtle now, and quit going for the altars. Over 30 minutes they would amass around 500-1000 gold just from the altar bonus, not including what vilemaw gives "cuz idk how much he gives." Man having both altars sure does put you ahead by quiet a bit now. The extra 10% damage sure did help in those fights 2. 50 seems small, but i have live with 15 hp before. Put that extra 10% and i just died.
Again, a very poor hypothetical. Why isn't your jungler grabbing the altar on your side? Altars stay locked for only 90 seconds. Are you saying that the tiny little gold bonus that they gained automatically leads to a loss for you? We've seen games like these and we know people can make comebacks. You're blowing the situation out of proportion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
First one-THAT IS TERRIBLE YOU ARE AN ASS HOLE RIOT WOULD NEVER HIRE YOU. Why? Enemy team has a bad start so you said they are not allowed to win now. They are not allowed the ability the come back because you had a impeccable start. Skill doesn't always determine if you win. I have been much better player than some people on old TT, but even when i make a mistake they capitalize, and those 5 successful ganks i pulled off, just got a loss. Why? Because they worked together and didn't surrender. So your saying i pulled of those good 5 ganks, and now they are not allowed to win because of it. Shame on you.
Personal insults! Yay! Maybe saying not allowed to win is a poor choice of words but rather they have been set back a bit far that their chances of winning have narrowed by a lot. They can still potentially win but it is an uphill battle. Twisted Treeline is supposed to be about faster gameplay than Summoner's Rift but slower than Dominion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
Starting from Or - if a comp scales better mid to late game, then having both altars will mean the world. They can buy items faster, and end up helping GG the game by 15 minutes. If you actually manage to capture your own altar, because the enemy is at vilemaw, or you know they just backed, then good. They won't get the ability to slip farther ahead, as long as you make good use of your buff too. However in 90 seconds it will be contested, and you lost it the first time. I doubt in 90 seconds you would of gotten good enough items to fight against the items they bought from the ace they just got on you.
What's wrong with ending the game at 15 minutes? Situations like these do happen. We see games in Summoner's Rift end at 20 or sooner so I do not see what is the problem here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
I understand where you are coming from. You like the idea of the altars, and you want to keep all of them. However they are really powerful right now. So powerful that they alone can in fact help end a game. People hate van dam's pillager, well those 2 aces both the ADs have it now. What do? Try to build armor sacrificing your damage, and they will still get farther ahead because of it. The altars are flawed dude, If riot wants this map to leave PBE, then at least nerf the altars, some of the items, and make it its own map.
You haven't presented a single argument that really shows altars are flawed. I have presented atleast some kind of statistic of why they aren't as powerful as you claim them to be. I acknowledge that the damage bonus near endgame make an impact but that's why it makes an impact then: to end the game and kill off turtling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
Edit: read the rest of your post



Maybe, i myself have not found it to be that big of an issue, however i do not focus on how op items are that much.



You do understand this is solo queue we are talking about. You act like a lot of people listen. There is no solo ranked, so people usually play as they please because its "normals". So team comp is 50% of the time out of the question. I have no idea if my top lane has awareness, he is a random that solo queue put me with. Yeah a 1v2 will push to the tower. Depending on who it is, most likely the 1v2 will make sure to kill the solo laner too.
So then it is not the map that is the problem but players unwilling to play as a team and work together as a team. Unable to make macro decisions for the best of the team to win games. That sounds like to me, a poor elo player. We've watched the world playoffs and finals. We know that inorder to win, teamwork is a key element that must prevail. If your team isn't listening or you have uncooperative people on your team, that's your team's fault and not the map's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
Idk dude you tell me. As far as i read, the jungler is focusing on capping and ganking. So he would get ganked pretty hard. You tried to say this is a heavily early game laning, i am arguing, that you won't be spending as much time in lane as you seem to exaggerate.
Why would your jungler be ganked really hard? Because your laners have no awareness that the jungle is missing? Mind you if the enemy laners are not in lane, they're missing out on the gold bonus and experience. If your jungler realizes the situation, and the gank fails, then the risk really hurts them. Not to mention there isn't any real brush that allows the enemy to hide in for the jungle other than the one in the backside of the altar which is really deep in the jungle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
I would be surprised to see ahri atm. A lot of games are anivia and cassio. That anivia wall is pretty strong. Who knows how much ap they will have at 10 minutes. You will have fought for the altar at least 3 times depending on how good each team is. So if you fought 3 times and they won, they could easily have 100 ap, which yes is only 10 ap, still more damage than you probably have.
More damage does not translate into guaranteed kills. Again the logic is not connecting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
That last one this is responding too, is responding to the wriggle lantern, hextech sweeper and, soul lantern argument. The passive is probably great. Again, i don't take the 1800 gold to build it unless i already have my other items. Still would be better to have wards instead.
I don't see how it is better to have wards. Given the size of the map and its reduced number of paths to traverse through, wards are too powerful and would hurt the jungler role too much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
What?

tl;dr for other people, i really don't like altars, and don't want old TT replaced with this new TT of capture the altar.
Yeah I think a lot of people see that but all you can produce is I don't like them, let's get rid of them, no logical, coherent, reasons produced.


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blindasleep

Senior Member

10-20-2012

I don't think people are taking into account the accelerated wave/jungle clear that 10% gives. That is where the real snowball is. If I can clear my wave to your tower then run to help my jungler or other lane, since this map is so compact you either defend your tower while trying to make up the farm, which will take more minions in the first place, or chase me and lose farm while my minions got to town on your tower. It's a lose/lose proposition.


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fiddlesticksssss

Senior Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
Ok first of all... you are jumping way ahead with hypotheticals. You automatically assume that after 1 team fight, they automatically have enough gold to pick up those specific items. Can you honestly say that after a single team fight you have that much gold to pick up all those items?
Never said if this is the first or not. However that is unfair of me. Say it is the first team fight for altars. You got aced, they have both altars, and only got 64 gold. They went back and picked up some stuff for black torche and van dam. Say the Ezreal in this scenario bought half of the recipe "thats not unreasonable at this time", and anivia only got the kage's lucky pick. Ok . So then you try to invade their side and get half of the altar back, due to the fact that you did get aced, guess what. You got aced again, however you took 2 of them down. Thats good. 1 person takes all 64 gold + another 64 for pushing top lane and another 64 for bot lane. They didn't get any kills and i don't actually not how much you would get for 3 assists. So he only got 192 gold + assist money. Say that person was ezreal. K got van dam, anivia picked up catalyst. You go for your altar, again flash frost and anivia ult, but this time she walls you in. Ezreal ults for 330 damage. Whoever the third person in, comes and help. Lets say its cassio, and you are using cho, corki, and kennen. Kennen lightning rushes, BANG cassio ult. Kennen died. J4 ult and cho uses rapture. Cho ulted and killed cassio, but anivia and Ez finish you off. This gold does have a difference as the game goes on, and does need to be nerfed and change. This isn't always going to be the scenario. As i said there are ways to come back, but 7 times out of 10 its almost a guaranteed loss at this point. No capturing both altars once doesn't end the game, but depending on the team, it can mean a bigger wall you will have to climb to catch back up.

tl;dr - you still lost this fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
Secondly, why are you going after their altars? Invading their jungling has risks - you are losing experience by not laning and potentially forcing another team fight that is not in your favour. Why not farm the pushed lane and freeze it on your side? You're not making sense with your hypotheticals.
You are the one not making sense this time. You split the scenario in half and try to make it sound different. That is 1 scenario, if you are not going to go for the altar, then yes you are probably gonna lose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
Again, a very poor hypothetical. Why isn't your jungler grabbing the altar on your side? Altars stay locked for only 90 seconds. Are you saying that the tiny little gold bonus that they gained automatically leads to a loss for you? We've seen games like these and we know people can make comebacks. You're blowing the situation out of proportion.
.
again split scenario in half, in this game there is no jungler, because this scenario didn't have one. If you did have a jungler then yes. You could probably turtle in your lane, and the enemy would only profit 200-300 gold off the bonus in total. There would be no second team fight and they wouldn't be as far ahead. However when they do contest your altar again, you are still probably gonna lose, depending if your team got any lane kills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
Personal insults! Yay! Maybe saying not allowed to win is a poor choice of words but rather they have been set back a bit far that their chances of winning have narrowed by a lot. They can still potentially win but it is an uphill battle. Twisted Treeline is supposed to be about faster gameplay than Summoner's Rift but slower than Dominion.
I am sorry if you were offended, however its very dickish to say the other team loses because they have a bad start. TT right now is much faster than dominion, because people like me are so bent of how stupid altars are, they don't want to continue after 15 minutes. Not including the people only playing to try a champ for the first time, and ofc the leaving troll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
What's wrong with ending the game at 15 minutes? Situations like these do happen. We see games in Summoner's Rift end at 20 or sooner so I do not see what is the problem here.
I guess you have never played original TT. No body liked games ending that quick. That is really the worst thing in the world. You are having a good game, and your team can come back, but they just give up and if you don't surrender they will leave. This new map with the altars, just made it worse. People give up MUCH more easily now after you lose both altars. Your point after this is why altars are flawed? Because people like me don't like how powerful they are, and when they lose both they will flat out quit the game. That is 1 very good reason why they are flawed. No one every quit a game after losing red buff or dragon before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
You haven't presented a single argument that really shows altars are flawed. I have presented atleast some kind of statistic of why they aren't as powerful as you claim them to be.
I have presented right now the highest scenario. I can spectate a game in custom, or even my own games in solo queue will go buy these scenarios. Let me present another that you seem to imagine is happening all the time. Altars 10% damage isn't that much so you never go for it. You allow the team the extra 4 gold and instead you focus on jungling and ganking. Your team plays like its old TT. 1 bot 1 top 1 jungle. They will collapse to help you, just as the team will and there is your team fight. You will gank lanes and 10 minutes into the game your team will start roaming. You will win a fight and get vilemaw and push to win. Yes!.....Nope. Never in a game has this happened. Lanes never last longer than a minute and a half at MOST. That extra 4 gold you let them have has amassed to 4,000 global gold. Most likely 1 or 2 of your ganks worked on top depending on skill level, but thanks to speed altar, bot lane can be top in sheer seconds. Around 5-10 seconds. I don't see any real statistic other than (10% isn't that much just use a jungler) in all of your arguments so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
So then it is not the map that is the problem but players unwilling to play as a team and work together as a team. Unable to make macro decisions for the best of the team to win games. That sounds like to me, a poor elo player. We've watched the world playoffs and finals. We know that inorder to win, teamwork is a key element that must prevail. If your team isn't listening or you have uncooperative people on your team, that's your team's fault and not the map's.
No its not the maps fault you are right. Its also not old TTs fault that darius can be countered, but people will still rage when he dunks them. Its the maps fault as well, because after losing 2 altars, depending on your random queue team, they will start raging. Common argument "report player and mute" Wtf? Old TT and new TT are team based. If i mute my team, when they get done raging, they could easily provide feedback to help us win, but instead i just muted them. World play offs have nothing to do with this new map at all. World play offs didn't have to worry about baron spawning int he first 2 minutes with 10 hp so they could team fight over it. Nor are world play offs red and blues replaced with altars, that give tfs passive. Low elo play? Wtf elo has nothing to do with normals at all. That reminds me of that raging darius "fight me irl brah do you even lift? I bet you are 500 elo. Well im 22,919,181,919 black hole ranking son, get on my level"!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
Why would your jungler be ganked really hard? Because your laners have no awareness that the jungle is missing? Mind you if the enemy laners are not in lane, they're missing out on the gold bonus and experience. If your jungler realizes the situation, and the gank fails, then the risk really hurts them. Not to mention there isn't any real brush that allows the enemy to hide in for the jungle other than the one in the backside of the altar which is really deep in the jungle.

More damage does not translate into guaranteed kills. Again the logic is not connecting.
Starting at Why - i don't know if my laners have awareness again its solo queue, i don't know any of these people. If the enemy is not in lane they can easily gank and get "gold and experience". I have hardly seen anyone fall to far behind when they leave lane for a good minute.

Yes more damage means you will get kills. Vayne with dorans will get much less kills than vayne with IE pdancer van dams ass raper. Inb4 "you are making no sense this has nothing to do with it". Yes dude that vayne scenario does have everything to do with damage = kills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
I don't see how it is better to have wards. Given the size of the map and its reduced number of paths to traverse through, wards are too powerful and would hurt the jungler role too much.


Yeah I think a lot of people see that but all you can produce is I don't like them, let's get rid of them, no logical, coherent, reasons produced.
Starting at I - If i did not say nerfed wards i am very sorry. I don't want to find this post and read the specific thing this is targeting. Let me rephrase unless its already done. It would be 10x better to have a nerfed version of wards, or the bear traps i proposed in PBE forums. Step on the bear trap, and just like nidalee/caitlyn you will be spotted. They should also be able to jump to by kat/lee/jax as well. They should be less gold than wards "25-50* and last much longer.

Yeah i think people see your defending altars too, and all they see it "10% damage isn't much, use a jungler, don't get altars, gg". No coherent reason is produce from this.

Edit: i can't keep doing these super posts at 3 in the morning so this is everything that i feel about altars, beautifully written by a cool dude. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2701225 again, i only want old TT to stay. If riot gives us that, i don't give a flying **** what happens to the altars, because there is a high chance i won't play the map if they are still on it.


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10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
Never said if this is the first or not. However that is unfair of me. Say it is the first team fight for altars. You got aced, they have both altars, and only got 64 gold. They went back and picked up some stuff for black torche and van dam. Say the Ezreal in this scenario bought half of the recipe "thats not unreasonable at this time", and anivia only got the kage's lucky pick. Ok . So then you try to invade their side and get half of the altar back, due to the fact that you did get aced, guess what. You got aced again, however you took 2 of them down. Thats good. 1 person takes all 64 gold + another 64 for pushing top lane and another 64 for bot lane. They didn't get any kills and i don't actually not how much you would get for 3 assists. So he only got 192 gold + assist money. Say that person was ezreal. K got van dam, anivia picked up catalyst. You go for your altar, again flash frost and anivia ult, but this time she walls you in. Ezreal ults for 330 damage. Whoever the third person in, comes and help. Lets say its cassio, and you are using cho, corki, and kennen. Kennen lightning rushes, BANG cassio ult. Kennen died. J4 ult and cho uses rapture. Cho ulted and killed cassio, but anivia and Ez finish you off. This gold does have a difference as the game goes on, and does need to be nerfed and change. This isn't always going to be the scenario. As i said there are ways to come back, but 7 times out of 10 its almost a guaranteed loss at this point. No capturing both altars once doesn't end the game, but depending on the team, it can mean a bigger wall you will have to climb to catch back up.

tl;dr - you still lost this fight.
Those hypotheticals! There's no point in responding directly in your absurd situations. At least make some sense out of them. You are still blinding yourself with the perspective that, I MUST HAVE AN ALTAR. 2 ALTAR TOO OP MUST MAKE RISK TO GET ONE. I don't see why you cannot just sit in your own jungle and wait till your altar opens up or setup a gank on the solo lanes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
You are the one not making sense this time. You split the scenario in half and try to make it sound different. That is 1 scenario, if you are not going to go for the altar, then yes you are probably gonna lose.
Again "I MUST HAVE AN ALTAR. 2 ALTAR TOO OP MUST MAKE RISK TO GET ONE"


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
again split scenario in half, in this game there is no jungler, because this scenario didn't have one. If you did have a jungler then yes. You could probably turtle in your lane, and the enemy would only profit 200-300 gold off the bonus in total. There would be no second team fight and they wouldn't be as far ahead. However when they do contest your altar again, you are still probably gonna lose, depending if your team got any lane kills.
I don't see why you wouldn't have a jungler. We have debated on this and really the conclusion ends up that a jungle is pretty viable for Shadow Isles Twisted Treeline.

So... 200 gold advantage = probably lose team fight? Poor logical reasoning again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
I am sorry if you were offended, however its very dickish to say the other team loses because they have a bad start. TT right now is much faster than dominion, because people like me are so bent of how stupid altars are, they don't want to continue after 15 minutes. Not including the people only playing to try a champ for the first time, and ofc the leaving troll.
Yes you are bent. You refuse to see logical reasoning of why altars are here and why they are balanced. I've had games short as 15 minutes and games long as 50 minutes on the new twisted treeline because of the constant back n' forth battles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
I guess you have never played original TT. No body liked games ending that quick. That is really the worst thing in the world. You are having a good game, and your team can come back, but they just give up and if you don't surrender they will leave. This new map with the altars, just made it worse. People give up MUCH more easily now after you lose both altars. Your point after this is why altars are flawed? Because people like me don't like how powerful they are, and when they lose both they will flat out quit the game. That is 1 very good reason why they are flawed. No one every quit a game after losing red buff or dragon before.
If you don't like games ending that quick: then play summoner's rift. Or more arguably, games only end quick cause people don't believe in themselves and fail to properly analyze the situation of the game before throwing in the towel. I had a game last night where our team comp was geared for late game. Yes we were losing early game badly. Their Ezreal was ahead of our ADC by several items and Veigar was constantly blowing us up. However they weren't making much progress on winning the game. They might've been up on kills but they could not fully capitalize on their victories. In the end, our team was much better late game and we ended up winning. Situations like the one last night do happen and can happen on Shadow Isles Twisted Treeline. Your unwavering constant opinion of altars without the backing of some logic has just blinded your perspective of how the map can be played.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
I have presented right now the highest scenario. I can spectate a game in custom, or even my own games in solo queue will go buy these scenarios. Let me present another that you seem to imagine is happening all the time. Altars 10% damage isn't that much so you never go for it. You allow the team the extra 4 gold and instead you focus on jungling and ganking. Your team plays like its old TT. 1 bot 1 top 1 jungle. They will collapse to help you, just as the team will and there is your team fight. You will gank lanes and 10 minutes into the game your team will start roaming. You will win a fight and get vilemaw and push to win. Yes!.....Nope. Never in a game has this happened. Lanes never last longer than a minute and a half at MOST. That extra 4 gold you let them have has amassed to 4,000 global gold. Most likely 1 or 2 of your ganks worked on top depending on skill level, but thanks to speed altar, bot lane can be top in sheer seconds. Around 5-10 seconds. I don't see any real statistic other than (10% isn't that much just use a jungler) in all of your arguments so far.
I don't understand... I don't go for it? Making sense, you aren't. Why would the jungler not go for our own altar? Also after a successful gank, why isn't your team backing off if they know they are at a disadvantage post fight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
No its not the maps fault you are right. Its also not old TTs fault that darius can be countered, but people will still rage when he dunks them. Its the maps fault as well, because after losing 2 altars, depending on your random queue team, they will start raging. Common argument "report player and mute" Wtf? Old TT and new TT are team based. If i mute my team, when they get done raging, they could easily provide feedback to help us win, but instead i just muted them. World play offs have nothing to do with this new map at all. World play offs didn't have to worry about baron spawning int he first 2 minutes with 10 hp so they could team fight over it. Nor are world play offs red and blues replaced with altars, that give tfs passive. Low elo play? Wtf elo has nothing to do with normals at all. That reminds me of that raging darius "fight me irl brah do you even lift? I bet you are 500 elo. Well im 22,919,181,919 black hole ranking son, get on my level"!
I cannot even begin on how wrong this argument is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
Starting at Why - i don't know if my laners have awareness again its solo queue, i don't know any of these people. If the enemy is not in lane they can easily gank and get "gold and experience". I have hardly seen anyone fall to far behind when they leave lane for a good minute.
What I don't understand is that, if the situation you describe is happening to you, why can it not be the same thing vice versa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
Yes more damage means you will get kills. Vayne with dorans will get much less kills than vayne with IE pdancer van dams ass raper. Inb4 "you are making no sense this has nothing to do with it". Yes dude that vayne scenario does have everything to do with damage = kills.
Of course. However with IE and phantom dancer... we're talking about a whooping 6300+ gold here. If I had a vayne that was up 5700 gold on the enemy vayne, he better be winning and carrying the game. I don't understand what exact point you are trying to make here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
Starting at I - If i did not say nerfed wards i am very sorry. I don't want to find this post and read the specific thing this is targeting. Let me rephrase unless its already done. It would be 10x better to have a nerfed version of wards, or the bear traps i proposed in PBE forums. Step on the bear trap, and just like nidalee/caitlyn you will be spotted. They should also be able to jump to by kat/lee/jax as well. They should be less gold than wards "25-50* and last much longer.

Yeah i think people see your defending altars too, and all they see it "10% damage isn't much, use a jungler, don't get altars, gg". No coherent reason is produce from this.
I don't see why Kat, Lee and Jax must have these wards to be able to jump to. Lee Sin is already very strong on Twisted Treeline and so is Jax. Why must be continue to buff them and give them this advantage?

Yes it isn't much. I even gave you some math. 10% of 100AP is 10! which rarely translates into 10 extra damage for AP carries and you said you mainly play AP carries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blindasleep
I don't think people are taking into account the accelerated wave/jungle clear that 10% gives. That is where the real snowball is. If I can clear my wave to your tower then run to help my jungler or other lane, since this map is so compact you either defend your tower while trying to make up the farm, which will take more minions in the first place, or chase me and lose farm while my minions got to town on your tower. It's a lose/lose proposition.
I think this point can only be proven or disproven through some statistics that only Riot can really provide at this point. I still haven't seen the huge snowball personally myself from 2 altars being captured by 1 team because it is always a constant back and forth battle (other than the 1 lee sin game where I made some great ganks and snowballed out from there).