Twisted Treeline: Growing Out of the Old - Initial Analysis

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SaveTheMaids

Senior Member

10-19-2012

I don't know if I like being unable to ward.

I generally don't ward for myself anyways.
I do it for my teammates that don't pay attention to the map or their position.

Seems like it will just add a whole new level of frustration.


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Para

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Senior Member

10-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drėd View Post
I have a quick question on the jungler role.

Do you take smite at all for Vilemaw?

I'm new to Twisted Treeline. It seems smite isn't useful at all if there's no buff camps.
I take smite to accelerate my jungling speed so I can get my level fast enough to gank lanes. Smite is also good for Vilemaw since it is a small map, it will get contested easily.

Consider it this way... if there were two junglers and 1 had smite and the other didn't, one jungler is going to finish his camps faster than the other and be ahead in levels when he goes out to gank. There might be exceptions to this like Maokai and Shaco being able to setup a little bit to forgo smite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaveTheMaids
I don't know if I like being unable to ward.

I generally don't ward for myself anyways.
I do it for my teammates that don't pay attention to the map or their position.

Seems like it will just add a whole new level of frustration.
Typically... your jungler is your ward in this map. The jungle is definitely smaller so his/her vision will mean a whole lot. I do recommend grabbing soulsight lantern as its utility is invaluable. When she/he (jungler)'s not farming creeps, she/he should be in the action looking for ganks, prepping for counter-ganks or trying to make some kind of play. You cannot be too passive in the jungle or you might cost a lane for the team. If you are an AP champion, you might consider grabbing Hextech Sweeper. Just fyi, soulsight lantern gives 10 seconds of true sight to a large aoe (About 600-700).

If anyone else has questions: feel free to ask.


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fiddlesticksssss

Senior Member

10-19-2012

You are a very very small minority that likes the altar. As a jungler...there is no jungling. You really have to be playing with bads. A decent team vs a decent team is absolutely no laning longer than 30 seconds. Go to lane, check make sure your altar is safe, RUSH ENEMY ALTAR. ACE **** YES. buy items proceed to win. And ofc vice versa, YOU GOT ACED, ****. Rage at each other for the next 15 minutes and either surrender or lose. Come backs are possible, but the enemy team really has to suck. Lack of top jungle makes it way to obvious when you are doing vilemaw, since you have vision on both altars if anyone is on it. So not in lane or altar? Fight at vilemaw it seems. Except when i say fight, i mean "attempt to stop it, but get aced by their extra damage". Altars need a nerf or change. If riot WANTS them to stay, they need a HUGE change. Speed altar however does need to leave. It gives way to much mobility. **** jungling, pick up kennen and have him move fast as **** to steal altars. Get teemo to place 10 shrooms in a line on the speed ruin since everyone is gonna use it with blackfire torch and have fun with free kills. The altars are relied upon way to heavily, because their priority is way to massive. Sure, i could PROBABLY see me playing it, but not right now. The altars are just way to game changing.

Edit: wards who gives a ****, however there needs to be a type of vision. Right now teemo, cait, or nidalee is a MUST have. If for some reason you are getting ganked, guess what? There is a bush dead in front of your turret, but them behind you. Have fun dying. A form of vision, that is not the same as a ward, is NEEDED. Being forced into lantern or hextech sweeper is pretty dumb.


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Para

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Senior Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
You are a very very small minority that likes the altar. As a jungler...there is no jungling. You really have to be playing with bads.
I don't understand... how is there no jungling? So if there is an enemy jungler, you are playing with bads? What do you have to support this? There are minion camps in the jungle. How is it not viable to have a jungler?

I had considered if one of my teammates were faced in a 2v1 situation that they would probably be pushed to the tower but not bad enough to just plain die unless my teammate was that bad. (consider Season 2 Worlds where lane swaps were done to create these situations). In general, 1v2 laner will probably fall behind cs wise but without a jungler... who will cap the altar? Altar unlocks AFTER minions start fighting each other in lane. Jungler levels pretty fast in Shadow Isles Twisted Treeline after clearing all 3 camps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
A decent team vs a decent team is absolutely no laning longer than 30 seconds. Go to lane, check make sure your altar is safe, RUSH ENEMY ALTAR. ACE **** YES. buy items proceed to win. And ofc vice versa, YOU GOT ACED, ****. Rage at each other for the next 15 minutes and either surrender or lose.
Umm what? Why are you throwing out random hypotheticals? Your jungler is keeping your altar safe and your laners safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
Come backs are possible, but the enemy team really has to suck. Lack of top jungle makes it way to obvious when you are doing vilemaw, since you have vision on both altars if anyone is on it. So not in lane or altar? Fight at vilemaw it seems. Except when i say fight, i mean "attempt to stop it, but get aced by their extra damage". Altars need a nerf or change. If riot WANTS them to stay, they need a HUGE change. Speed altar however does need to leave. It gives way to much mobility. **** jungling, pick up kennen and have him move fast as **** to steal altars.
... wow. Ok.. let Kennen run into my jungle, burn his only escape and get counter-jungled by the jungler. I also like your logic: +10% damage = guarenteed ace. Everyone should know that it is teamfighting skills that make aces happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
Get teemo to place 10 shrooms in a line on the speed ruin since everyone is gonna use it with blackfire torch and have fun with free kills. The altars are relied upon way to heavily, because their priority is way to massive. Sure, i could PROBABLY see me playing it, but not right now. The altars are just way to game changing.
There are items to counter teemo shrooms. Namely the new spirittorch and Hextech sweeper. Yes they are annoying but well placed usage of the lantern/sweeper will help you clear shrooms. These two items have about 700 cast range with roughly 600 radius that lasts for 10 seconds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
Edit: wards who gives a ****, however there needs to be a type of vision. Right now teemo, cait, or nidalee is a MUST have. If for some reason you are getting ganked, guess what? There is a bush dead in front of your turret, but them behind you. Have fun dying. A form of vision, that is not the same as a ward, is NEEDED. Being forced into lantern or hextech sweeper is pretty dumb.
How is being forced into lantern or hextech sweeper dumb? They're wonderful items that provide excellent utility. How often can you say that you bought Wiggle's Lantern on Zaun/Noxus Twisted Treeline for the cost effective stats and the utility of placing a ward? However I can understand your frustration that you are being forced to build that item but haven't a lot of LoL games been like that? Forced to buy wards to provide vision and stay away from getting ganked. Forced to buy boots because I would get caught easily if I didn't. Forced to buy Frozen Heart because they have a team composed of mostly auto attackers. Forced to buy Negatron Cloak(s) because of the double AP carry composition. Your reasoning is flawed. I do not see what makes buying lantern/sweeper any different than buying specific items because the situation demands it.


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H2o Pk is 1337

Junior Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
I don't understand... how is there no jungling? So if there is an enemy jungler, you are playing with bads? What do you have to support this? There are minion camps in the jungle. How is it not viable to have a jungler?

I had considered if one of my teammates were faced in a 2v1 situation that they would probably be pushed to the tower but not bad enough to just plain die unless my teammate was that bad. (consider Season 2 Worlds where lane swaps were done to create these situations). In general, 1v2 laner will probably fall behind cs wise but without a jungler... who will cap the altar? Altar unlocks AFTER minions start fighting each other in lane. Jungler levels pretty fast in Shadow Isles Twisted Treeline after clearing all 3 camps.

Umm what? Why are you throwing out random hypotheticals? Your jungler is keeping your altar safe and your laners safe.

... wow. Ok.. let Kennen run into my jungle, burn his only escape and get counter-jungled by the jungler. I also like your logic: +10% damage = guarenteed ace. Everyone should know that it is teamfighting skills that make aces happen.

There are items to counter teemo shrooms. Namely the new spirittorch and Hextech sweeper. Yes they are annoying but well placed usage of the lantern/sweeper will help you clear shrooms. These two items have about 700 cast range with roughly 600 radius that lasts for 10 seconds.

How is being forced into lantern or hextech sweeper dumb? They're wonderful items that provide excellent utility. How often can you say that you bought Wiggle's Lantern on Zaun/Noxus Twisted Treeline for the cost effective stats and the utility of placing a ward? However I can understand your frustration that you are being forced to build that item but haven't a lot of LoL games been like that? Forced to buy wards to provide vision and stay away from getting ganked. Forced to buy boots because I would get caught easily if I didn't. Forced to buy Frozen Heart because they have a team composed of mostly auto attackers. Forced to buy Negatron Cloak(s) because of the double AP carry composition. Your reasoning is flawed. I do not see what makes buying lantern/sweeper any different than buying specific items because the situation demands it.

too long for a good reason. made much sense


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Infirc

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Senior Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
You are a very very small minority that likes the altar. As a jungler...there is no jungling. You really have to be playing with bads. A decent team vs a decent team is absolutely no laning longer than 30 seconds. Go to lane, check make sure your altar is safe, RUSH ENEMY ALTAR. ACE **** YES. buy items proceed to win. And ofc vice versa, YOU GOT ACED, ****. Rage at each other for the next 15 minutes and either surrender or lose. Come backs are possible, but the enemy team really has to suck. Lack of top jungle makes it way to obvious when you are doing vilemaw, since you have vision on both altars if anyone is on it. So not in lane or altar? Fight at vilemaw it seems. Except when i say fight, i mean "attempt to stop it, but get aced by their extra damage". Altars need a nerf or change. If riot WANTS them to stay, they need a HUGE change. Speed altar however does need to leave. It gives way to much mobility. **** jungling, pick up kennen and have him move fast as **** to steal altars. Get teemo to place 10 shrooms in a line on the speed ruin since everyone is gonna use it with blackfire torch and have fun with free kills. The altars are relied upon way to heavily, because their priority is way to massive. Sure, i could PROBABLY see me playing it, but not right now. The altars are just way to game changing.

Edit: wards who gives a ****, however there needs to be a type of vision. Right now teemo, cait, or nidalee is a MUST have. If for some reason you are getting ganked, guess what? There is a bush dead in front of your turret, but them behind you. Have fun dying. A form of vision, that is not the same as a ward, is NEEDED. Being forced into lantern or hextech sweeper is pretty dumb.
Man Altars are +10% to Ad or Ap that's +40 when someone is at 400 mark and i've yet to meet the first mage let alone Carry that breaks the 350 mark on Ad carries, specially accounting than 372 AD or 400 AP is a level 18 full build worth Around 12k Gold if youa re getting defensive items, 600 Ap if you are building glass cannon but you'll be dying anyways if you do that so, yes Altars are not as "overpowered" as your kneee-jerk reaction makes it to see. On early game when teams get the altars first it's 71*10/100=+7.1 Ad or 45*10/100=+4.5 Ap, i fail too see how that is"snowbally"
The real problem you have had is the van damn pillager, the item is Op and shoud be flat out removed, toned down or built from a pickaxe+brutalizer instead of Hog+brut, so that it gives Ad+Sv+Arpen+Cdr without giving health while costing MORE than its current sale price. i can prett ymuch assure you that those games where someone rofltomps has a Pillager somewhere on the team that's winning Heck i could even get that ****ing thing on the Newly Nerfed Sona and Ace a team.

edit: and why am i even trying to convince a knee-jerk of something, when his so called main account got banned on beta 2 years ago and he still hasn't had the decency to level other account to 30 during after wo years period.


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Wildfaux

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Master Recruiter

10-20-2012

Out with the bruisers, and in with the non-ult reliant champions! Wooo!


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fiddlesticksssss

Senior Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infirc View Post
edit: and why am i even trying to convince a knee-jerk of something, when his so called main account got banned on beta 2 years ago and he still hasn't had the decency to level other account to 30 during after wo years period.
what are you talking about. I'm level 30 1000~ games with only silver in TT ranked and silver in SR ranked. Wtf? Let alone its not the damage. If you control both altars you also are the only team getting the extra gold. So therefor puts you farther ahead and the van dam pillager you seem to cry about (that isn't that big of a problem) is bought even quicker. Controlling both altars slowly puts you farther and farther ahead (kinda like a snowball slowly gets bigger and bigger, weird), they are so important you can't ignore them. They act as free wards as well, sometimes for some reason catching sight of you even if you don't pass over it. Regardless, if riot listens to the polls or not, they should be getting changed to minions at the least minions on top of altars, since right now the polls favor creeps over altars. Wtf is a knee-jerk? Regardless, i can tell this is a thread full of trolls, who refuse to actually help devise a solution since more people than you actually hate the altars, but wants to keep them. Instead of raging at me for "not having a level 30 account", you could join "the altars thread" in devising a solution of what to do, OR vote that shivering isle is its own map, so you can keep your ****ty altars, and i can play a TT with actual strategy.


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fiddlesticksssss

Senior Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
I don't understand... how is there no jungling? So if there is an enemy jungler, you are playing with bads? What do you have to support this? There are minion camps in the jungle. How is it not viable to have a jungler?
Right now, i have not lost to a team with a jungler. While they are jungling, in solo queue, its way to easy to kill that 1v2 lane. Also top can EASILY run the straight line down, maybe hitting the speed altar, to get there and make it a 3v1, before the jungler has a chance to arrive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
I had considered if one of my teammates were faced in a 2v1 situation that they would probably be pushed to the tower but not bad enough to just plain die unless my teammate was that bad. (consider Season 2 Worlds where lane swaps were done to create these situations). In general, 1v2 laner will probably fall behind cs wise but without a jungler... who will cap the altar?Umm what? Why are you throwing out random hypotheticals? Your jungler is keeping your altar safe and your laners safe.
So far out of the 30~ games i have played, the whole entire team moves as a group to defend and to take an altar. If the jungler tries to cap it alone, you just got a free kill. Falling behind in cs is hard, because of how quick the jungle spawns. Not getting creeps in lane, but help keeping the lane alive? When they push, break off and clear a camp or 2, go back to lane, rinse repeat. Jungling just takes away from the person not getting cs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
wow. Ok.. let Kennen run into my jungle, burn his only escape and get counter-jungled by the jungler. I also like your logic: +10% damage = guarenteed ace. Everyone should know that it is teamfighting skills that make aces happen.
Yeah kennen can run into your jungle. EASILY, with that speed ruin and EASILY escape, unless he is seriously bad. +10% damage helps far more than you seem to think especially with the black torch on aps. It will help end fights much quicker, and with all that extra gold from keeping both altars, you are probably a whole other item ahead of the enemy team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
There are items to counter teemo shrooms. Namely the new spirittorch and Hextech sweeper. Yes they are annoying but well placed usage of the lantern/sweeper will help you clear shrooms. These two items have about 700 cast range with roughly 600 radius that lasts for 10 seconds.
There are items like oracle extract. Only the team that is ahead will buy it. Yeah you know, i was only guessing teemo would be good so i will give you this. As you know the only good teemo players are people who actually play him for a while. Even with black torch giving him MASSIVE damage, he still requires skill, which it seems not ever random has in solo queue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Para View Post
How is being forced into lantern or hextech sweeper dumb? They're wonderful items that provide excellent utility. How often can you say that you bought Wiggle's Lantern on Zaun/Noxus Twisted Treeline for the cost effective stats and the utility of placing a ward? However I can understand your frustration that you are being forced to build that item but haven't a lot of LoL games been like that? Forced to buy wards to provide vision and stay away from getting ganked. Forced to buy boots because I would get caught easily if I didn't. Forced to buy Frozen Heart because they have a team composed of mostly auto attackers. Forced to buy Negatron Cloak(s) because of the double AP carry composition. Your reasoning is flawed. I do not see what makes buying lantern/sweeper any different than buying specific items because the situation demands it.
Lantern is an amazing item, i won't lie. I very much like it, however with the random lag i get on the new map i can't use it effectively because for some reason when i try to use it my character likes to walk instead. Honestly, every game i played melee bruiser i 100% bought wriggles. It saves my team from having to buy wards, and in 3 uses i can save 225 gold. Its better than soul lantern already. No a lot of LoL games i don't have to be forced into building anything, because i mainly play aps. So i am forced to buy the best ap items for that game, which i enjoy. I do not enjoy buying hextech sweeper, because the stats are not that terribly great. I think it gives 10% cooldown though right? If so, that is really the best thing on it, for 1800~ gold. Most expensive bush checking item in game amirite? You're reasoning is flawed, i don't see the point in being told when i should and shouldn't enter the jungle. I am forced to defend a altar, because its importance of just having 1 is to great. Replacing them with creeps or nerfing them, so that they give an edge, but not an edge that overwhelms you out the ass would be fine. I don't like it when i have 2 teammates or myself not playing very well 1 game, to be forced into a team fight with sub par items, compared to the other team. Vice versa, i do not like being forced to defend altars all the time i see the enemy try to take it, because since we can't have wards because of altars, not all the time my team will respond. So if i try to defend alone, i will probably get a stun to the face, die, then raged at. However i do see this thread is supporting you extremely heavily instead of providing actual feedback other than yourself, so i won't respond anymore.


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Para

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Senior Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
what are you talking about. I'm level 30 1000~ games with only silver in TT ranked and silver in SR ranked. Wtf? Let alone its not the damage. If you control both altars you also are the only team getting the extra gold. So therefor puts you farther ahead and the van dam pillager you seem to cry about (that isn't that big of a problem) is bought even quicker. Controlling both altars slowly puts you farther and farther ahead (kinda like a snowbally slowly gets bigger and bigger, weird), they are so important you can't ignore them. They act as free wards as well, sometimes for some reason catching sight of you even if you don't pass over it. Regardless, if riot listens to the polls or not, they should be getting changed to minions at the least minions on top of altars, since right now the polls favor creeps over altars. Wtf is a knee-jerk? Regardless, i can tell this is a thread full of trolls, who refuse to actually help devise a solution since more people than you actually hate the altars, but wants to keep them. Instead of raging at me for "not having a level 30 account", you could join "the altars thread" in devising a solution of what to do, OR vote that shivering isle is its own map, so you can keep your ****ty altars, and i can play a TT with actual strategy.
You do realize that you have to kill creeps to be able to take advantage of the gold gain bonus.

Consider the following situation with this scenario: your enemy controls both altars after just capturing the altar on your side.

You lost a team fight not too long ago and the enemy has used the numbers advantage to push for a team objective: the altar. Let's say both teams are at the same skill level. Whoever that did not die, may be close to death so after capturing the altar, they have to back off or risk being caught out. During this time of teleporting back to base, they will not have made full benefit of their altar because they're at a weakened state and unable to risk farming or get killed. Fast forward, solo laners have returned to their lane and jungler has returned into the jungle. How much of an advantage has been gained so far? Not much.

Gold bonus can never be taken advantage of until it is gained and used to buy more items.

If the skill cap was much wider and the team fight does end disastrously for one team, maybe that team deserves to lose. What's wrong with that? If the team that lost the altar but only lost a team fight due to a bad mistake and considered to be more skilled than the other team, they still have a chance to make a comeback.

Or what if one team comp just scales better to mid-late game than the other? Gold bonus does not translate into guaranteed win. And what's not to say that you can recap your own altar and capture theirs later on?

Also about the lord van damm, its very possible that the item will be nerfed heavily later on as the beta progresses. This is not a map specific problem but the item itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
Right now, i have not lost to a team with a jungler. While they are jungling, in solo queue, its way to easy to kill that 1v2 lane. Also top can EASILY run the straight line down, maybe hitting the speed altar, to get there and make it a 3v1, before the jungler has a chance to arrive.
Way easy? What are you running? Champion composition plays a lot into how 1v2 matchups play out to be. Does your top lane have any awareness that his opponent is missing from lane and possibly going towards bottom for a gank? It is a lot easier for your top lane to arrive on your side of bottom lane than it is for their top lane to arrive on your side of bottom lane. I say your side of bottom lane because it is very common for a 1v2 matchup to push to your tower. So... farm under tower. Make sure you get the experience and stay 1 level ahead of their champions so when both your jungler and yourself engage in a 2v2 fight, you both have a level advantage on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
So far out of the 30~ games i have played, the whole entire team moves as a group to defend and to take an altar. If the jungler tries to cap it alone, you just got a free kill. Falling behind in cs is hard, because of how quick the jungle spawns. Not getting creeps in lane, but help keeping the lane alive? When they push, break off and clear a camp or 2, go back to lane, rinse repeat. Jungling just takes away from the person not getting cs.
So.. wait... what kind of dumb jungler goes into enemy jungle to capture the altar by himself? Why would you overextend into an enemy jungle when you know it is going to be dangerous? Doesn't make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
Yeah kennen can run into your jungle. EASILY, with that speed ruin and EASILY escape, unless he is seriously bad. +10% damage helps far more than you seem to think especially with the black torch on aps. It will help end fights much quicker, and with all that extra gold from keeping both altars, you are probably a whole other item ahead of the enemy team.
Again, mathematically, considering how much items you might have at 10 minutes, 10% is not a lot. AP carry at 10 minutes might have 50 AP with +5 AP bonus from the +10% bonus AP from altar but you need to consider how much that translate into damage. Let's say Ahri's Orb of Deception: scaling of 0.6 so 0.6 of that 5 AP is about 3 points of extra damage. Real big damage there. Yes it will be a lot more effective late game but by late game, the game should be ending not stall fest. I have already said that Black Torch needs some adjustment and Riot has posted that they are looking into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlesticksssss View Post
Lantern is an amazing item, i won't lie. I very much like it, however with the random lag i get on the new map i can't use it effectively because for some reason when i try to use it my character likes to walk instead. Honestly, every game i played melee bruiser i 100% bought wriggles. It saves my team from having to buy wards, and in 3 uses i can save 225 gold. Its better than soul lantern already. No a lot of LoL games i don't have to be forced into building anything, because i mainly play aps. So i am forced to buy the best ap items for that game, which i enjoy. I do not enjoy buying hextech sweeper, because the stats are not that terribly great. I think it gives 10% cooldown though right? If so, that is really the best thing on it, for 1800~ gold. Most expensive bush checking item in game amirite? You're reasoning is flawed, i don't see the point in being told when i should and shouldn't enter the jungle. I am forced to defend a altar, because its importance of just having 1 is to great. Replacing them with creeps or nerfing them, so that they give an edge, but not an edge that overwhelms you out the ass would be fine. I don't like it when i have 2 teammates or myself not playing very well 1 game, to be forced into a team fight with sub par items, compared to the other team. Vice versa, i do not like being forced to defend altars all the time i see the enemy try to take it, because since we can't have wards because of altars, not all the time my team will respond. So if i try to defend alone, i will probably get a stun to the face, die, then raged at. However i do see this thread is supporting you extremely heavily instead of providing actual feedback other than yourself, so i won't respond anymore.
I'm looking at your argument and I do not see any point presented by you to state why you shouldn't defend the altar. Cause... you don't like it? It is a team game. Why wouldn't you help your team and defend it? If your team is not helping you win games then why play league of legends? League of Legends is ALL ABOUT TEAM PLAY. You also neglect that hextech sweeper grants a passive to your spells that when your spell hits an enemy, a true sight debuff is applied to them.

edit: Very nice, calling me an ******* then deleting your post.