Tweak Discussion on 2.5 Controversial Changes

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CaptainAMorgan

Senior Member

10-18-2012

From this alone I clearly know that you never played competitive 3s or played a lot on the old TT.

TT gameplay is based on the same precepts that SR is. It is a similar gameplay based on more macro oriented teamplay, but since the map is smaller and there are smaller avenues more team fighting is inevitable not forced.

The jungle in old TT was super important, but so inconsistent and strong that it was not even looked at by most.

There was game time transition rather than all the action at one point, boss at another gogogogogo.
On the old TT there was a transition in control and relevance (the bots were not totally OP as well. So skipping them for a push was actually worth it Towers were far superior to Drag). Bot is the split push lane, top was the gank roamer with jungler, and top lane was important around the buff time and then Dragon. Dragon was the fight every 5 minutes, compared to 90 seconds that this completely forces. The pacing is completely off.

This map is encouraging very specific fight points, which are far more limiting to the gameplay in comparison to the old TT.
The gameplay in the previous encouraged and enforced more warding (map control), care (longer death timers, creating more careful gameplay as the timer went up), jungling, and overall understanding of the game and map.

Now we are told where to fight and when to fight. On top of this they have dictated the champ selection with their benefits and the speed buff. A speed buff straight from dominion, a cap point straight from dominion, and now unique items just like dominion, and did I mention no wards?

This game mode has been PUSHED from it's original iteration into a complete Dominion Rift 3v3.
Nothing more.

I would be appalled if they pulled TT when they release this.
All TT needed was: Jungle fix, Backdoor fix, Base pull fix, Lane creep balancing, tower fix, and some map redesing (making only particular clear points on the walls that can be jumped, as well as fewer condensed brushes, and a real timeable jungle).


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Desocupado

Senior Member

10-18-2012

TT could have wards WITHOUT stealth. As simple as that.


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GRRgamel

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Senior Member

10-18-2012

as of now, it just feels like the whole game is revolved around capturing a point. if they were mini bosses that your team had to work together to get, that actually dealt damage, wasn't up every minute and a half and didn't give such a hearty advantage over the other team, i'd be okay with it. i'd really like it to be single buffs to one team member though. thats the point of Venomaw, the team wide buff..

and for future reference, you can copy quotes to different threads, just click the "quote" button and copy all the text it gives you. thanks for you thoughtful input in my thread, i'm hoping riot takes all this to heart.


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CaptainAMorgan

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRRgamel View Post
as of now, it just feels like the whole game is revolved around capturing a point. if they were mini bosses that your team had to work together to get, that actually dealt damage, wasn't up every minute and a half and didn't give such a hearty advantage over the other team, i'd be okay with it. i'd really like it to be single buffs to one team member though. thats the point of Venomaw, the team wide buff..

and for future reference, you can copy quotes to different threads, just click the "quote" button and copy all the text it gives you. thanks for you thoughtful input in my thread, i'm hoping riot takes all this to heart.
It wasn't entirely copied, there was some added at the end.

Either way, the pace of the new map is more comparable to dominion. The "new" features (Cap points, lack of a real spacious and separated jungle, Speed boost, lack of wards) come straight from dominion.

This just stinks to high heaven of laziness IMO. You can move mountains with a million bucks, so why not make the jungle consistent, change the buffs around a bit, change the map layout and base layout and keep the REAL Treeline?
Or is this complete cop out easier/better for them?


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CountMoriarty

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainAMorgan View Post
From this alone I clearly know that you never played competitive 3s or played a lot on the old TT.
Thank you for your assumption, if you look at my profile you'll see that I do infact have a Ranked 3v3 team, Although its recently made with only 10 or so games, I have of course played many more 3v3 games practicing for it. My disclaimer about not playing Twisted Treeline a lot, may have led you astray, I wouldn't say that I'm clueless.

I in a large part agree with your assesment on 3v3 gameplay of old Twisted Treeline.

What I don't agree with is that this cannot be replicated on the new map. I don't understand your ire as it is obvious that agree TT needed fixes that Shadow Isles brings.

Yes I agree that the buffs of the alters are strong, and yes I agree that forcing a fight at alters every 90 seconds really ruins twisted treeline. But what if Alters gave you red buff, and locked for 4 or 5 mins. How could they possibly ruin the game then. I'm not sure you read the original post at all.


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CaptainAMorgan

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CountMoriarty View Post

I in a large part agree with your assesment on 3v3 gameplay of old Twisted Treeline.

What I don't agree with is that this cannot be replicated on the new map. I don't understand your ire as it is obvious that agree TT needed fixes that Shadow Isles brings.
And no, it doesn't fix anything because this plastic surgery job left the patient a whole nother *** entirely, and we haven't even seen that kind yet.

It's a new game mode, with absolutely no similarities to the old map.

Tell me one thing that is similar, I am dying to hear outside of "it has two lanes, a tower, and some inhibs"

The map is not in this one, it's died for this monstrosity that most have already considered Dominion Rift 3v3.

Too many key features from Dominion, not enough, if any at all, from TT.


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1onz

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Senior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CountMoriarty View Post

2. No Wards

Wards have been removed from 3v3 game play. They were very powerful on twisted treeline. I believe that the decision to remove wards may have been that they were too powerful and perhaps it was believed they slowed down game play.

This feels like a negative thing. Gaining and removing vision control was an exciting part of 3v3 gameplay especially because their are obvious powerful warding locations. Additionally wards set up exciting and risky plays that wouldn't be executed without ward coverage. Lastly, although removing wards may allow more ganks to be successful it may also encourage far more passive play and tower hugging.

Solution

Removing wards altogether is an extreme measure. Some possible alternative solutions to the power and gank ruining of wards are. Make wards more expensive, make wards have a shorter duration when placed. Even if wards didn't stealth when you place them (allowing anyone to easily remove them) wards would be a powerful (and fun) item.
Having wards in a small map like this one would just stagnate the course of the game. The whole point of the new TT is have constantly have small skirmishes in a fast paced environment.


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CountMoriarty

Senior Member

10-18-2012

To the Captain, Its 3v3, with 2 lanes, Large buff camp in the top. Smaller buff in the middle of mid jungle. The capture points are not key features from dominion, they don't hurt your opponents nexus, they can't be immediatly exchanged, they have a spawn timer. Maybe the buffs power needs to be adjusted, maybe the ease of aquiring the buff needs to be adjusted maybe the the spawn timer needs to be adjusted. Its a cross between a jungle camp and a capture point, and I think it just needs a small shove towards jungle camp.

At 1onz I believe not having ward encourages safer play, which can be stagnate. Aditionally fighting over ward placement caused small skirmishes in the old TT, why wouldn't it continue in new 3v3. Wards are very strong, maybe they need nerfs, maybe they need more ways to be removed (hextech sweeper) but i feel removal was a mallet approach to a scalpel problem


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CountMoriarty

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Enough traffic in twisted that it actually fell off first page. bump.


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fiddlesticksssss

Senior Member

10-20-2012

Right now the main hate is that this map will replace old TT. However this map doesn't bring....the gameplay that a majority of TT fans like. That is why this is getting such a huge amount of attention. If riot said "oh hey this is a new map that will not replace anything, its a 3v3 version of dominion, but with the classic feel of TT" then people wouldn't be fighting so hard against the altars. That is really just it. If they kept both maps "right now with altars i think they should" then it would split the community. However this isn't live so right now yes it would increase game time. On live, it only takes me about 30 or so seconds to find a game on TT. So if you put in a map it would probably be a minute or 2 to find a game with BOTH maps. I can't say the same about ranked "only got 1274 elo on ranked 3s before disband". Honestly altars hold the importance of dragon RIGHT NOW, luckily this is just beta. However even if they nerfed the altars, it still wouldn't be that terribly fun. I myself love the strategy that involves old TT. The ward placement, ganking without being noticed, level 1 skirmish in bot bush, or level 1 gank under top lan or in top lane bush, and stealing white and green buff without being noticed. All this is better than "go here, fight this, win or lose your fate shall be decided". Its a cool idea, terribly executed, and definitely something that shouldn't replace old TT.

Also i don't think riot really cares about splitting the community. I tried to play a normal draft on dominion...25 minutes later i finally found a game.


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