Tweak Discussion on 2.5 Controversial Changes

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CountMoriarty

Senior Member

10-18-2012

First I'd like to say that the new Twisted Treeline looks great. I mean it is beautiful. I think that the new map has done so much to increase the playability of 3v3. Limiting turtling and reducing the burden of knowledge/luck that went into old jungle of Twisted Treeline is great. The items sound like they really help break up the viability of three bruisers team compositions.

I want to talk about a couple big changes and realistic tweaks that should be tested (not "I don't like it. Change it Back")

Alters

The Alters are a fun flavorful neutral objective that increases the importance of junglers (although not smite) and increases the pace of the game. They have a similar role to what a buff monster creep would have. However, I believe that there are 2 distinct differences that have a negative effect on 3v3 game play.

Alters do not defend themselves. They are simple to take, just stand on them. Because they are so easy to take, teams want to take them as soon as they are up. This encourages an early skirmish and places a lot of importance on level one team fight. Can you imagine summoners rift if you could easily take Baron at level one, even if jungle buffs are invaded the only counter-play isn't fight, you can always attempt to sneak away the enemy buff. The close proximity of the alters will discourage any passive play like this. So alters encourage teams to fight at level one. Why is this a problem? First, A lot of people are anxious about losing the importance of lanes in 3v3. Secondly teams will have to put a greater importance on a level one fight.

Alters are up every 90 seconds. There is a strong buff to be contested every 90 seconds. This is going to pull teams away from whatever is being done to skirmish in the middle. I've already mentioned concern about the importance of lanes. Additionally it just makes taking the buff feel slightly less rewarding. I believe it is a powerful buff, but when you have to fight over it every 90 seconds, each victory isn't that exciting.

I've pointed these things out as negatives, which is how a vocal part of Twisted Treeline players feel, because they feel like it will change the gameplay of 3v3 to a more skirmish based game that they aren't comfortable with. I've also mentioned how these things can be negative without taking into consideration that it forces constant skirmishing. However, these things were quite obviously implemented with the intention of creating the skirmishes, in order to ensure a faster paced game play. I think that Riot has gone too far.

An additional valid concern is that the Alters buff is far too powerful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRRgamel View Post
didn't give such a hearty advantage over the other team, i'd be okay with it. i'd really like it to be single buffs to one team member though. thats the point of Venomaw, the team wide buff..
The alters already create faster gameplay by giving out a gold buff, But they also have negative effects. I think that this can be easily balanced. To me, Solutions such as remove the alters, or keep old twisted treeline are overzealous and bad for 3v3 game play.

Solution

Timer Tweaks in two locations. At start of game Alters should remained locked longer, they should either remain locked or defend themselves to an extent that a team might be able to pressure the opposing team off it. Encouraging a level one skirmish is exciting, but really detracts from lane play and forces team to overly think about level one fighting in champion select. Longer locks is a small fix that might really help.

Once taken, buff remains locked longer. Forcing buff contention every 90 seconds make them feel less rewarding and changes the focus of the game.

I don't know the correct timers for either of these, but fiddling with lock timers seems like a simple fix that might make a lot of people happy, it should at least be tested on the PBE

2. No Wards

Wards have been removed from 3v3 game play. They were very powerful on twisted treeline. I believe that the decision to remove wards may have been that they were too powerful and perhaps it was believed they slowed down game play.

This feels like a negative thing. Gaining and removing vision control was an exciting part of 3v3 gameplay especially because their are obvious powerful warding locations. Additionally wards set up exciting and risky plays that wouldn't be executed without ward coverage. Lastly, although removing wards may allow more ganks to be successful it may also encourage far more passive play and tower hugging.

Solution

Removing wards altogether is an extreme measure. Some possible alternative solutions to the power and gank ruining of wards are. Make wards more expensive, make wards have a shorter duration when placed. Even if wards didn't stealth when you place them (allowing anyone to easily remove them) wards would be a powerful (and fun) item.

2.5 Speed Shrine

For me this is half a controversy. I feel like it is far less contentious than the other changes, but I would like to hear more about it. I've heard that certain champions may become must picks because with extra movespeed they are OP. I have large doubts about the validity of this claim. To me the speed shrine kind of feels tacked on, and I don't mind it either way. However, One thing I would be interested to know is how it impacts ganks and pushing. Ganks have a risk/reward factor in allowing one lane to free farm/push. With a speed shrine in the middle does a failed gank become less of a big deal because the team can easily reposition?

Lastly, I have not been able to play Shadow Isles at all. I have played a moderate amount of Twisted Treeline. I would love to test Shadow Isles, but PBE signups only being open at the start of the month and all. It never seemed worth it and now I'm sad I don't have an account. So what I'm saying is I'm not qualified to write this at all. My qualifications comes down to the fact that I'm a half decent writer/critical thinker.


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CountMoriarty

Senior Member

10-18-2012

I'm sorry for the splotchy bolding but I wanted to convey a lot of material while also keeping a fromat that a Red looking for Bullet point responses might pay attention to and also attracts attention to important points for those ADHD with 12 tabs open

TLDR, READ THE BOLD

Then go back and read it, just for me


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ITzNybble

Junior Member

10-18-2012

I have agree with you on all of you points, the game seems like dominion now. I have played 5 or so games now on PBE and all but one of the games was a surrender before all towers were even gone. because the game would be something absurd like 30-kills to 4 kills. Because no one focuses the towers and just fights for the alters all game.

I would also like to add one thing I find somewhat OP, the new items they have added into 3v3's is absurd in the case of AD items they all give lifesteal and attack damage. I wont lie, I have just been playing fiora and stacking these new items and reach up to around 50% lifesteal before the enemy team surrenders. Since her attack speed is high to begin with plus her skills buffs, you cannot kill her without using your whole team. That is if she doesnt Ulti the entire team and cannot be targeted and when she comes back with full life, well....GG.

so not only are your points valid but there is still a lot of work to due in the sense of balance to the new TT and 3v3.


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CountMoriarty

Senior Member

10-18-2012

I feel like they would really like Shadow Isles for Holloween and I believe it might take longer in Beta to really get it down. I hope they make it available like holloween week and then send it back to beta.


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ITzNybble

Junior Member

10-18-2012

I dont mind them releasing it along side the current TT, just no ranked until it is deployable.


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CountMoriarty

Senior Member

10-18-2012

The problem with splitting 3v3 across Twisted Treeline and the Shadow Isles is longer que times (split players), harder balancing decisions, and creating two factions within the community that will both end up unhappy.


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CaptainAMorgan

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Not a fan.

Still limiting the gameplay severely losing touch with the original map.

It's not about this map anymore, this map cannot be TT vol.2 it has nothing to do with the first one. NOTHING.


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CountMoriarty

Senior Member

10-18-2012

I'm bumping this because I believe I have a well written case here, with decent solutions.




Or maybe my mom just told me I was special too often.


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CaptainAMorgan

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Your solutions still keep the game way far off of a TT rework.

This doesn't have anything to do with TT

They only needed to make the old TT more consistent for it to be competitive. They totally make a new game mode.


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CountMoriarty

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Could you possibly explain why this new map can't be the new form of 3v3, and that it is too far away from Twisted Treelines gameplay. I don't understand. Twisted treeline needed a change to prevent turtling, the dominance of blink and bruisers, to help out ap casters, a visual upgrade, and consistency in the jungle, the remake did all of this.

From your previous post it seems like you are most upset about the loss of the top jungle (which has truly just migrated mid) I understand how the change can be unsettling but the advantage of being near both lanes while Jungling and shorter paths between camps seems to be a good trade off.

The other thing is the the alters forcing constant skirmishes. They split Redbuff into two alters, gave it a bigger buff, made it easier to capture, and had it spawn more often. Doesn't it make sense that nerfing the buff, making it harder to capture, and having it spawn less would bring back the 3v3 style gameplay you love?


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