[Official Petition] Let new TT be a new map by itself.

First Riot Post
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SmokingJoeNL

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by javiwey View Post
"lets be clear though" you fixed some problems, but added a ton more of problems and bigger than the old ones, you also made it so the meta is even more stale, the game is stale, and you and everyone that had something to do with this change should die in a fire, i never express so much hate for people but youve earned it, thats how ****ing stupid you are and sound with that ****ing post full of bull****, what gets me even more is that you state that this is still TT, like moking us "pff heh guys its still called TT pff hahahaHAHA" you and the other idiots that had something to do with this can **** yourselves and die.

edit: btw let me tell you something, you werent going to split the comunity, maybe people were going to play it once in a while but no way in hell this was going to take half the TT comunity maybe not even a 10th.
Let's try to keep it civil.


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Twilight Monkey

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volibar View Post

As for the fate of old TT, right now we have no plans to add it back into custom games. we wanted to make sure that we don't split the focus of our players for each game type. For the same reason we probably won't ever create a 5v5 map that's really similar to Summoner's Rift, we didn't want to split the TT community between two maps. There's really no winner in that scenario, as there are two maps to support, two metas to maintain, and overall a really small delta between the two. We'd rather have you and our teams focused on one, working together to make it great as opposed to two, having neither of them living up to their full potential. If competitive TT is also going to take off, having two maps, even in custom games, is detrimental.
With an impressive 32 million accounts (or so I heard) I dont think splitting the community would be mutch of a problem.


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ayob

Junior Member

11-08-2012

twisted treeline was basically a 3v3 summoner's rift. this new map is not like that at all!!


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LittleSchneider

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Senior Member

11-08-2012

Riot pls.


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IcySlayer

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Riot do you even care about the community anymore?


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Omesh

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exqzr View Post
Omesh,

Problems with old map that needed addressing.
You and I agree here, though I'm incredulous over how you downrate the problem of turtling. Anyways. Let's go on, because we agree on little else.

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New Map.
I'm going to shorten this list by taking everything "Riot agrees with" and ignoring it. When I talk about "problems", I'm talking about intrinsic flaws in gameplay and design-- not bug fixes. Around half of your "problems" are issues of balance that inevitably come up when new content is release; almost all of their newly released champs have these sorts of issues, and all of the maps have had issues of the same persuasion at one point or another in their lifetimes.

So I can't really take half of these seriously, because they're the sorts of bugs and imbalances that should be expected from Beta content-- because remember, this is the Beta. I expect there to be balance issues that need to be tweaked. But that's not what I'm asking for from you.

Moving on, then:

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1. Too small. Really feels like it should be a 2 v 2
Strongly disagree, but I know that the reduced size is going to be a problem for some people. That said, we're not talking about a huge difference between the old map and the new map, but I think this is just a matter of opinion. I will admit that the layout/dimension of the map took some time for me to get used to.

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2. Too quick. Team fights are forced not "timed"
I actually think that this is partially an issue that falls under altar management/maintenance, but the entire point of the map is to be quick and to foster early team-fights (which, honestly, were "forced" just as much in the old map, too).

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6. Game Hyper Snowballs. Way harder to come back from an early deficit.
I don't necessarily disagree-- but again, I think that has to do with how the map has been balanced. And it's only in Beta stages.

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7. Even more OP champ issues than in original TT. (See Sam's Darius Tier - it's kind of funny).
I think it's kind of childish, frankly, because of all the Darius's I've rolled with, only one has actually done my team any good. Thing about Darius is that he doesn't play himself, and most Darius players in my experience just think they win by default based on who they pick at the champion select screen.

I don't think there are more OP champs here, I think the OP champs are different. But you and I both seem to agree that this is an issue that spans both the new and the old map, and I think that might have to do more with champion balance than map balance (and, frankly, itemization).

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8. More trolls in game now. Less experienced 3 v 3ers making game experience rough for long time players
Problem with the playerbase, not the map.

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12. Lanes are too narrow/tight. Makes some spells impossible to dodge, when they should be avoidable with skilled play.
I haven't really had this experience, but I've never felt for a second that the lanes are too tight in comparison to how tight they originally were. Again, close-quarters is the name of the game.

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14. Reduced frame rates on most computers. Some computers can't handle the new map.
...get a better computer? Sorry, being a wiseguy there, but I don't really have a better answer to that. My computer can handle it fine on the settings I typically play the game on.

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15. No wards. Or at least some sort of reasonable vision mechanic.
I haven't missed the wards for one second, though I wouldn't mind getting them back in a far more limited capacity. I think if you're paying attention to the map and using Lantern items and things like Shrooms and Clairvoyance regularly, you're going to be in fine standing as far as map/jungle control goes.

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17. Altar control mechanic is poor. Favours tanks
Another altar issue. Seems like this is the common denominator here. Again, don't necessarily disagree, but you're still talking about balance issues instead of intrinsic flaws.

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19. Any semblance of strategy has been replaced with tactical execution only. This is a discussion in of itself.
Sure, but I actually disagree-- not completely, since a bruiser team can often just brute force their way through a match if necessary, but enough. I'd be curious to hear your more in-depth thoughts on this.

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20. Game takes just as long or longer than Classic TT. Except where you can be destroying your opponents, give up one lucky ace and game is over. nothing fun about that its a waste of 30 minutes.
I haven't actually had as many long games here as I'd expected.

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There is 20 and that's just scratching the surface as each reason has many "off shoot" examples. and I did not go into any depth about how these things affect the game experience. As well, I already posted reasons for not liking the new map in many posts, you are very late to the party, and I really shouldn't have to be the one to get you up to speed.
Uh, yeah, you should. You're the one arguing with me and making claims, it's incumbent on you to back them up; it is not incumbent on me to rip through 300+ pages of "signed". This sort of thing makes you sound pretentious. I know what the major player complaints are-- but I'm talking to you and I'm asking what you think. If you think this is an unfair burden, stop arguing with/sassing strangers over the Internet who are trying to have a reasonable discussion with you.

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I also agree companies should always try to have a positive bottom line. That is not what I meant by self serving. Riot has a clear "agenda" here. I know what it is but I'm too tired and too w/e to try to explain it to people who have no desire to look behind the curtain. Kind of like telling a six year old that Santa doesn't exist. It might be the truth but all its going to get you is a kick in the shin from one very upset little person.
You're more likely to piss me off by comparing me to a six year old for absolutely no reason whatsoever than by telling me what you think their agenda is. If I disagree, that's my prerogative as a human with opinions and perspective, but you really have no business being as condescending as you're being when you also flat-out refuse to do anything to prove your case. The more you hold back and decline to tell me "the truth", the less inclined I am to give you any sort of credibility; the more you hurl insults at me, the less likely I am to give this discussion any more of my time and energy.

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As for the confusing and weird changes to SR. yeah that's my point. Its the same for dedicated TTers. But it's ok to do it to us because we don't matter.(?). A smaller community is not a less important community unless for RIOT it's a simple case of Triage.
I suppose you could see it that way. The point I'm trying to make is that SR is their flagship map; they'd gain nothing by changing it, but the other point is that SR is actually balanced and does/exists as all of the things Riot wants it to. Grant that I don't play SR that much so any player concerns with that map beyond cosmetic issues are beyond the scope of my awareness, but here's the thing: why would they ever screw with a map that's balanced? (And if it's not perfect, it still is and always has been in a better place than Treeline.) There's no reason for them to do so, not just from a monetary standpoint (bread and butter map) but from a design standpoint.

Treeline, on the other hand, is neither their bread and butter nor balanced. The thing that gets me is that the overhaul is a direct result of player outcry. There has been demand for attention to Treeline for a long, long time, and Riot responded to that-- finally!-- by remaking the map. Obviously that's been a less-than-perfect solution thus far, but

a) we're in Beta, and
b) it's not like they didn't tell us this was happening either
c) it's not like they don't want our feedback

So there's that.

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as for frustrating clients... well, there at least we can agree. But again, I really dont care if Riot fixes this new map or doesn't. I just want a choice for both.
It's not like I blame you for wanting choice, either. But...

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There is NO REASON other than server cost to not have both. If RIOT feels the cost is greater than the return, we will not get the Classic TT back. Conversely, if they feel the cost is worth it, we will get i back. I am going to try to show them that they have made a mistake and should bring it back.
If they really can't afford to keep both going, I don't think you can really hold that against Riot. And as much as I admire your efforts to show them that they've made a mistake, you will never convince them to bring the map back if their bottom line can't take it. Not trying to sound callous or dismissive, but you and I both know that that's just the way it is.

At the same time I think Riot would be in a weird place if they had two 3v3 maps with super-similar styles of gameplay and which support similar team comps and favor similar champions.Maybe that's just me.


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HeroProtagonist

Member

11-08-2012

I logged in, first time since June, just to make this post.

A new map is great. LoL needed it. However....

You can call a pig a prince, but it's still a pig, and 5 is not 4 just because you call it 4. Making a new map and calling it "Twisted Treeline" doesn't make it Twisted Treeline. Fact is Riot put in a new map that plays entirely differently and took away the old map that people (a lot of people) really enjoyed playing.

I was an intense TT player and enjoyed the "turtling", "exploitive", and jungling aspects of the old map, familiarity with which I built up over several years of play.

While the new map may be fun and addresses some issues with the old map, it never-the-less is NOT Twisted Treeline whatever Riot chooses to call it (just like New Coke wasn't Coke).


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NihilMaiza

Junior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volibar View Post
Hi all, just wanted to drop by and say a few things. To start off, we certainly have been reading this thread and watching it over the past few weeks. I haven't been posting here because I wanted to see the overall sentiment from around the community about the new Twisted Treeline after people have had a chance to play it and experience it for themselves in a meaningful way.

I've also addressed some of TT topics on our Reddit AMA we did a few days ago, but I'm happy to discuss here as well

When we started looking at Twisted Treeline really intensely earlier this year (around the start of 2011), there were many issues that the community had identified. Among the worst were turtling, the meta being pretty stale, and there were a pretty big number of exploits that had way too much of an effect on the game. (You probably already know this, though.)

So, when we sat down to try and solve the problems, the solution space we started in was small - can we make a few simple changes here or there? What if we make a few item changes, etc.? Those helped, but ultimately we started expanding what we tried, but at the same time we were seeing better resolution to those problems. We adjusted the layout, sometimes making small changes, sometimes trying things we thankfully didn't ship (and we tried a TON). In the end, the map we created and all of the changes that have come with it was our answer to the problems that have plagued the map for a very long time. Our goal has and will always be to allow the fast pace, high action, small team feel that TT should represent to flourish.

As for the fate of old TT, right now we have no plans to add it back into custom games. we wanted to make sure that we don't split the focus of our players for each game type. For the same reason we probably won't ever create a 5v5 map that's really similar to Summoner's Rift, we didn't want to split the TT community between two maps. There's really no winner in that scenario, as there are two maps to support, two metas to maintain, and overall a really small delta between the two. We'd rather have you and our teams focused on one, working together to make it great as opposed to two, having neither of them living up to their full potential. If competitive TT is also going to take off, having two maps, even in custom games, is detrimental.

Let's be clear though, this is still Twisted Treeline. It is a bit different and sometimes change can be a little disruptive, but when we took a look at what we had on our hands after thousands of playtests, we wanted to release the new TT to you and get feedback as part of our Beta process. That's still ongoing, and we're going to continue to listen to your feedback and make changes going forward, ensuring that TT has the support it deserves.
I'm actually going to be quite blunt here, but it needs to be said.
Without the players of this game, you would be nothing, so why are you not letting the players have a say? You say you want to perfect a single map, yet not everyone wants to play on that map. Even though there are flaws to the old TT, that is the map we all enjoyed playing, and the flaws are what make the old TT what it was. I believe it's a joke you're actually forcing away the map purely because you want to focus on one? Sure, create your new "TT" change the name, because it really is not a Twisted Treeline at all, perfect that, change it as much as you want. But keep the old Twisted Treeline and keep it as it is, because after this joke you call TT Beta, I'd rather a flawed map than an new out of the ordinary 3v3 map.

Let your players have a say instead of being so negligent, keeping an old map up for custom games without having to change a single thing about it, proves no difficulty for you and your fellow employee's. This statement was a joke, purely to the fact you believe you have to continue focusing on changing the old Twisted Treeline, when we don't. If you can't notice that by now during this entire thread, then I'll have to state it again "negligent". Pull your socks up Riot and give the players a break. Please.


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NihilMaiza

Junior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBCShad View Post
I think having both maps would inevitably be detrimental... Lets focus on how to make it even better, rather than trying to have two separate maps.
Well there's clearly more problems with the new map, as there's an entire thread here stating how much they want the old Twisted Treeline back compared to this, there was never a thread stating how bad the old Twisted Treeline was and thousands of people posting on it saying they want this and that changed, it was merely people claiming problems over time and how mad they were because of them instead of using them to their advantage. Sure having two maps would be detrimental I don't disagree, but why have the new map, that in fact has a lot more problems than the old, and is NOTHING like the old Twisted Treeline be the "new" focus. Instead of trying to improve the old, we're now trying to improve the new? Wasn't the whole idea of this new Beta Twisted Treeline to improve the OLD map. So why are we now trying to improve this.

~Riot logic.
~Replace map due to problems with old map.
~Has more problems than old map.
~Focuses on fixing new map instead of the old one we all enjoyed playing.
~Lol you can't have your old map, because negligence and selfishness.
~Actually really annoyed and discouraged to continue playing this game.


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Vicium

Junior Member

11-08-2012

Signed, I hate the new TT <.<