[Official Petition] Let new TT be a new map by itself.

First Riot Post
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slayer Roma

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11-07-2012

actually now i decided not to play LOL if old TT is not back


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NicknameMy

Senior Member

11-07-2012

If you give riot enough money to upkeep servers only for old TT, then they will do it.^^


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Rockaqt

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volibar View Post

Let's be clear though, this is still Twisted Treeline.
Oi you down syndrome ******... THIS IS NOT TWISTED TREELINE. This is a 3v3 dominion game. Jesus christ.


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Omesh

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockajaw View Post
Oi you down syndrome ******... THIS IS NOT TWISTED TREELINE. This is a 3v3 dominion game. Jesus christ.
I've played Treeline, and I've played Dominion. SI Treeline is not Dominion. I'm extremely fed up with this argument, mostly because it makes no sense but also because it makes no sense.

In Dominion, the objective is cap and hold. Capture points are essential to win. In SI Treeline, they are not. You can win the game without capturing them once. Hell, you can win the game while your opponents hold both of them.

Meanwhile, the game doesn't end if you capture the altars a bunch. The game ends when you walk into the enemy base and punch their Nexus in the face.

In Dominion, there is no jungle. In SI Treeline, there is, and it's an excellent source of farm for champs who can clear it reliably and safely and quickly.

But there's a speed buff on both maps and starting gold totals are higher, so yeah, you're right, TOTALLY LIKE DOMINION.

I'm waiting for this stupid "omg iz jus liek Duminyun lololol" trend to die out. It adds nothing to the conversation about how Treeline can be improved and just shows flat-out ignorance of how games on SI Treeline actually play out. (And, hell, how Dominion games play out.) I signed Fraysa's petition out of loyalty and nostalgia to/for the original map-- I really thought keeping both of these 3-maps would be a good idea-- but after playing the new Treeline, I dig it; it needs some tweaks but it's a vastly improved map overall.


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FriendlyRaid

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keono View Post
Let's be clear a long time ago on a server far far away SOE thought they didn't have to listen to their community too.........
Wow, and I thought I was the only one who witnessed almost all their games die one by one as the game devs TOLD the player base what was fun. I'm telling you Riot, this is not a good precedent to set.

I'm not saying you give in to every petty player demand, but right now thousands of players want Twisted Treeline back and Riot has yet to give us a logical argument as to why they won't give us both maps. This "split the player focus" catch phrase they keep bantering around is complete BS.


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Narcmo

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11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Applerust View Post
Has this post gotten RIOT's attention? Thousands of people in the community want the old TT back. WTF RIOT? Most players DO NOT LIKE the new TT as a replacement map. Are you guys gonna get that through your head? Give us our old map back!
Your statement is invalid. You have absolutely no data to support the statement that "Most players DO NOT LIKE the new TT". I LOVE the new map, and so do thousands of others. I know that their are thousands of people that don't like it but stop being such a baby and learn to adapt to change.


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Narcmo

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11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omesh View Post
I've played Treeline, and I've played Dominion. SI Treeline is not Dominion. I'm extremely fed up with this argument, mostly because it makes no sense but also because it makes no sense.

In Dominion, the objective is cap and hold. Capture points are essential to win. In SI Treeline, they are not. You can win the game without capturing them once. Hell, you can win the game while your opponents hold both of them.

Meanwhile, the game doesn't end if you capture the altars a bunch. The game ends when you walk into the enemy base and punch their Nexus in the face.

In Dominion, there is no jungle. In SI Treeline, there is, and it's an excellent source of farm for champs who can clear it reliably and safely and quickly.

But there's a speed buff on both maps and starting gold totals are higher, so yeah, you're right, TOTALLY LIKE DOMINION.

I'm waiting for this stupid "omg iz jus liek Duminyun lololol" trend to die out. It adds nothing to the conversation about how Treeline can be improved and just shows flat-out ignorance of how games on SI Treeline actually play out. (And, hell, how Dominion games play out.) I signed Fraysa's petition out of loyalty and nostalgia to/for the original map-- I really thought keeping both of these 3-maps would be a good idea-- but after playing the new Treeline, I dig it; it needs some tweaks but it's a vastly improved map overall.
I agreed 100%.


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Exqzr

Senior Member

11-07-2012

You're argument "makes no sense and also it makes no sense."

What TTers are trying to explain is that the new TT has some similar elements and feels like a dominion game in the way the game experience is delivered. i.e. with the focus on tactics over strategy and team fights over a balance of PVE and PVP.

The "spirit" of a MOBA is a PVE, PVP balance. The new map trends towards a PVP focus. Many players don't like this as it dramatically changes the flow of the game and changes what a MOBA is supposed to be about, makes them unique and so well loved.

Dominion heavily pushes the game towards PVP as well and this is where the major "it feels like Dominion" is coming from.

Riot has made a poor choice in customer service for a better financial return. This troubles me. They say their success is due to their customers (and it is), they have grown unbelievable large in 3 short years with 700+ employees. and they have abandoned their roots (in 3 v3 play) and left thousands of loyal customers out in the cold.

I ask what if this had been done to SR? Think about it and you will understand. It will begin to make sense.

Riot needs to do better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omesh View Post
I've played Treeline, and I've played Dominion. SI Treeline is not Dominion. I'm extremely fed up with this argument, mostly because it makes no sense but also because it makes no sense.

In Dominion, the objective is cap and hold. Capture points are essential to win. In SI Treeline, they are not. You can win the game without capturing them once. Hell, you can win the game while your opponents hold both of them.

Meanwhile, the game doesn't end if you capture the altars a bunch. The game ends when you walk into the enemy base and punch their Nexus in the face.

In Dominion, there is no jungle. In SI Treeline, there is, and it's an excellent source of farm for champs who can clear it reliably and safely and quickly.

But there's a speed buff on both maps and starting gold totals are higher, so yeah, you're right, TOTALLY LIKE DOMINION.

I'm waiting for this stupid "omg iz jus liek Duminyun lololol" trend to die out. It adds nothing to the conversation about how Treeline can be improved and just shows flat-out ignorance of how games on SI Treeline actually play out. (And, hell, how Dominion games play out.) I signed Fraysa's petition out of loyalty and nostalgia to/for the original map-- I really thought keeping both of these 3-maps would be a good idea-- but after playing the new Treeline, I dig it; it needs some tweaks but it's a vastly improved map overall.


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PheonixSlayer1

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Junior Member

11-07-2012

Signed.

The old TT was my favorite map, and I played it almost every game. With this new TT their is to much PvP focus and rushing. This focus is making players on the map poor players. I will hop into a game and everyone will rush to go kill everyone. This usually results in the score two minutes in being 1/5, and the whole game is boring from then on because the other team is fed.

The old TT, with it's imperfections was great! It was always a surprise about what was going to happen next and if teemo was going to suddenly appear and punch your face. I haven't even seen a teemo play TT now, because only heave PvP champs, like ww, jax, trynd, etc.. are being played.

I really don't think turtle strategy was that bad of a problem, there were good ways to circumvent it. Flash, flashing champs, toss spells over walls, be a tank and shove your way in, etc.. The only one of those that can be done now, tank. Boring!

Make it a new map. I don't think it will be a problem for Riot to have two metas, they already did and no one complained.


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Omesh

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exqzr View Post
You're argument "makes no sense and also it makes no sense."

What TTers are trying to explain is that the new TT has some similar elements and feels like a dominion game in the way the game experience is delivered. i.e. with the focus on tactics over strategy and team fights over a balance of PVE and PVP.
Don't try to rewrite anything here-- that's not what people are complaining about. The very post I quoted, in fact, strictly labels SI Treeline as "3v3 Dominion". That says nothing about creating an imbalance between PvE and PvP elements, or that SI Treeline "feels" like Dominion; that's outright calling SI Treeline "3v3 Dominion". There's no nuance or room for interpretation there, and that's true of a number of similar threads and posts that have been made in the wake of the patch.

If you want to make this an argument about the "spirit of MOBA games", that's one thing, and I actually think that's a worthier conversation to have. But that's not what the post I responded to argued, not in the slightest.

Quote:
The "spirit" of a MOBA is a PVE, PVP balance. The new map trends towards a PVP focus. Many players don't like this as it dramatically changes the flow of the game and changes what a MOBA is supposed to be about, makes them unique and so well loved.
So why are they playing Treeline? Treeline was always been much more about PvP than PvE, even with the older jungle. I'm not sure this argument holds much water-- compare the two jungles side-by side. Classic Treeline had eight neutral monster camps (2 Wraith/Golem camps mid, Grez mid, 2 Wolf/Golem camps top, 2 Buff camps top, Ebonmaw top); SI Treeline has seven (Vilemaw top, 2 Golem camps mid, 2 Wraith camps mid, 2 Wolf camps mid). How is that so drastic a reduction in PvE elements?

What I think is really "off" about this argument is that the new jungle is much easier to reliably use as a source of income-- the camps are consistent, their difficulty is reasonable, and they give lots of gold (particularly if you keep up altar buffs). Decent jungle champs can very easily utilize the revenue off of jungle mobs, which I assume is what you're talking about when you refer to "PvE" elements; on top of that, Vilemaw, though in need of tweaking, is an excellent PvE objective for players to vie over.

That's to say nothing of the altars, which are a balance between PvP and PvE objectives-- they force player confrontations, which is on the PvP side, but they're also similar to jungle camps in that they need to be maintained and captured on a regular basis for best effect, which feels a lot like a PvE objective. (Not to mention the hidden SI lore embedded in them, which is strictly PvE.)

So, sorry, I don't really think the "MOBA spirit" has been diluted much if at all here.

Quote:
Dominion heavily pushes the game towards PVP as well and this is where the major "it feels like Dominion" is coming from.
Well, I get that. But that's Dominion.

Quote:
Riot has made a poor choice in customer service for a better financial return. This troubles me. They say their success is due to their customers (and it is), they have grown unbelievable large in 3 short years with 700+ employees. and they have abandoned their roots (in 3 v3 play) and left thousands of loyal customers out in the cold.
Unless you can point to how overhauling Treeline will provide tangible positive financial gains that are more unique than those gained by virtue of SI Treeline being "new" (acknowledging that new content does drive revenue up), I don't see how you can make this argument credible. We can only really suppose based on how companies, products, and markets function, but I've yet to see any hard evidence from you that supports this continued claim. Until you produce it, I can't really take this seriously. Please take no offense to that.

I
Quote:
ask what if this had been done to SR? Think about it and you will understand. It will begin to make sense.

Riot needs to do better.
SR is a very different map from Treeline; its sheer size allows it to maintain that balance between PvE and PvP play really, really easily, so if this had been done to SR I'd be confused. Such an overhaul would make no sense. But Treeline != SR. The size of Treeline lends itself toward an increase in PvP over PvE, so the fact that there are any PvE elements at all is something of a miracle. The fact that they've been retained in the remake shows that Riot cares about the map's history, I think, and while the map overall requires some maintenance and updates, I think they're going in the right direction.