Riot, all this mess about incoming Sona nerfs is a proof of reverse power creep.

First Riot Post
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Genspirit

Senior Member

10-16-2012

also i would like to point out there are far far less viable supports than there are ad carries


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A Frosted Wolf

Senior Member

10-16-2012

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Originally Posted by PriorityOne View Post
I just wish you'd leave the Mage part of Mage/Support characters intact.

Galio is a Mage/Tank who can function well building primarily AP items or defensive items, however it feels like Mage/Supports have gotten the Mage hammered out of them with repeated nerfs.
This is just it. They keep taking away the Mage part of a support.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

10-16-2012

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Originally Posted by Genspirit View Post
but its ok to have only ez, graves, and corki used

makes sense
People that are still saying there are only these 3 strong ADC are way behind in time (around 4-6 weeks, what is a lot).

Ez is still at the top but the nerf is coming.

We saw that Vayne and Kog did a great job at the S2 WC and were actually better than Graves and Croki.
MF got used in some niche tactics and very successful.
Same with Cait.

Only Ashe, Trist and the 2 still newer ADC are not in there.


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Ledinax

Senior Member

10-16-2012

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Originally Posted by NoIntestines View Post
Anyway, what I really came here to talk about is skill creep. As a game gets older and more people play it, the community as a whole becomes more skilled. This means, especially in a game with as many playable characters as League, that a lot of champions and strategies may seem under powered simply because they are under played or under skilled.

The best contemporary example is Ezreal. Ezreal didn't start having an insane win record in NA and EU because he got buffed, he become OP when people played him more and learned how to use his skills more effectively.

While Sona has been popular for longer than Ezreal, she has gone through the same pattern a couple times in recent memory. When people got more skilled at poking and harassing with Sona they realized they could play an in-your-face carry like Graves or Corki and crank up the pushing and bullying potential. Combine with a tank jungler and you get the constant tower-diving you see in parts of today's competitive scene.

How many times has Irelia been nerfed? Yet she still remains competitive because people keep getting better and discovering effective play patterns. Though skill creep is less tangible (and I imagine harder to measure) than other forms of power creep like mobility, crowd control, and raw numbers, it is nonetheless a major force in a persistent game.
I agree with your point, although I think skill creep is natural and good for a game's health. Players adapt to what the company gives to them, and the company also reacts (or should react) to that adaptation by modifying things according to (skilled and intelligent) player's perception of those elements.

Just my two cents on that.


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Genspirit

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
People that are still saying there are only these 3 strong ADC are way behind in time (around 4-6 weeks, what is a lot).

Ez is still at the top but the nerf is coming.

We saw that Vayne and Kog did a great job at the S2 WC and were actually better than Graves and Croki.
MF got used in some niche tactics and very successful.
Same with Cait.

Only Ashe, Trist and the 2 still newer ADC are not in there.
they arent the only strong adc they are just strong early game with a good amount of burst and a decent amount of sustained damage coupled with an escape of some sort meaning they are easy to do well with early game and then snowball.


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sniperfodderz

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Comparing a champion that was widly overpowered (let's go look at those release numbers, eh?) to the current state isn't a valid data set. By this logic, Vlad is terrible and unusable, as is TF and Zyra :P

Sona's GREAT right now. She's very good, and very strong - superb poke, good utility, and tank-level AOE CC. Saying she's bad is just...wrong.
Tank level cc is a little strong isn't it? She has 1 aoe cc the does meh damage. After that she has little damage little heal and a slow mechanic that doesn't lock down a target. The only tank that has comparable cc is singed, and one could argue he does more.

As for the thread's point, I feel like she could use a slightly stronger poke and that the armor and mr boost should go up slightly.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genspirit View Post
also i would like to point out there are far far less viable supports than there are ad carries
Support GP, Yorick, Maokai and Syndra.

All of them and some more have the potential to be really good support champs.
But they are not good as the others.

On the other side we have actually only Tristana.
Varus nad Draven are strong if played right (Aphro). They may not be the bet picks for a WC, but they are strong enough to be used in normal tournaments.
Ashe is situational and counters some comps.
All others were used in the WC more than once.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genspirit View Post
they arent the only strong adc they are just strong early game with a good amount of burst and a decent amount of sustained damage coupled with an escape of some sort meaning they are easy to do well with early game and then snowball.
MF has a stronger early game than most ADC.
Graves, even when fed, falls off late game since his AS is down by a good mount.


What is wrong with a strong early game?
an ADC is about late game, so some of them can be ok with a weak early game.

How did vayne get picked by the most offensive and successful early game team (TPA)?
Her early game sucks, but they still used her cause the player knew how to get through this phase.


I see a lot of ADC going in for trades and blaming their team cause they have to 2v3 sometimes as Vayne or Kog.
I say: Stay behind, miss CS, dont feed and win the game later.
Pros can do it and they come back.
Normal players start crying and go AFK or they start feeding cause they can't have a bad early game?


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BeatRushVII

Senior Member

10-16-2012

what i dont get is why whenever one support feels too strong you just nerf that one to bring it in line with other under powered supports, THIS is why supports get upset. Why don't you just take the other up supports and buff them so they are on sona/soraka/janna tier. ITs annoying when your role is already widely viewed as "not game changing"and you get hit with nerf after nerf after nerf


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michelada

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is a red herring. The power level across the board, generally, is up - we constantly add total power to the game. There's zero evidence of a progression of reverse power creep - in fact, our game is power-creeping a little.

For supports, we're going to take it on the chin if we ever nerf any of them at this point, regardless of if it is or isn't correct - the negative feelings of the nerfs we've done have really left a sour taste in people's mouth (and I can understand that).

What this means, is it's going to be even harder to get usable feedback because it's going to be a lot of frustration and anger (Hostile Miku finally lost it with the idea of another Sona nerf!). It's very, very clear to me that this will anger people - I get that.

I also want to be clear, while I'm signing off on this stuff, this is the recommendation my experts are making - and their analysis checks out. I'll ask them to come give it in person on the forums if we do decide to hit Sona so there's more context. That won't solve the anger problem (you can't out-logic emotion), but maybe at least make it understandable.

It's tough, because in cases like this we have to make a choice between making players mad or doing what makes the game better and more balanced. Making players mad isn't something we like to do, but sometimes it is something we have to do.

What I will say is, if we do push supports out, we'll get them back in - just like we did with Sona. We'll just be faster next time Out goal is not to push them out, but it's also not OK to have only Sona/Janna/Soraka used (this was literally six weeks ago in NA finals). If Sona is pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka, that's as much of a problem as if it Leona or Blitz were doing it.

so then are u going to nerf karthus , orianna and evelyn???? , cause these champs do the same thing with all other viable mages