Riot, all this mess about incoming Sona nerfs is a proof of reverse power creep.

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SavagePeaches

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Blitz is meant to push Soraka/Janna/Lulu out of lane.
He's an aggressive support. As is Leona.

If all Leonas and all Blitzcranks played like your average Soraka, that'd just be a waste of a pick.
Sona isn't supposed to be able to push other supports out of lane as well as she is at the moment.
I remember when Janna's shield could keep up with Sona harass. Those were good times.

Sona is strong whether people want to realize it or not. Buffing the other supports would be the same as buffing all the other AD carries because of the Top 3 (corki graves ezreal), stupid. The other AD carries aren't weak, the top 3 are just strong and have the tools necessary to do their job better than other carries.

If you were in a zombie apocalypse and you had to choose between a guy that can run at an average speed and an Olympic track runner that could jump over everything, which would you pick?
I think the answer is obvious. The top 3 are picked mainly because they are mobile on top of being able to dish out good damage. The other carries can dish out good damage as well as more damage than the top 3, they just can't run away from some of the damage like the top 3 can.


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GreekAsTheGods

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagami View Post
I'd like to argue blitz pushes out Soraka and Janna much more than Sona does atm despite Sona having more tournament play, if you look at stats in ranked despite Blitz being a semi-popular ban he still sees more play than almost Soraka, Janna, and lulu combined in ranked play atm, so I question how Sona can be viewed as an Issue and Blitz isn't? I mean Blitz so being very strong definitely pushes out Leona, cause he's just better in too many ways compared to her.

P.S. Why is Lux is allowed to be a good support and strong mage, while Lulu is a nerfed into the ground mage, and a mediocre Support?(She lost EVERY game she was picked in tournament play in the regionals and WC and generally feels weak because of her mana issues as a support and over nerfed AP ratios as a Mid)
lulu is one of the strongest supports. she isnt weak. anyone with AoE knockup is pretty much top tier. ori, cho, lulu, ali, malph. all super strong.


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Darmikau

Senior Member

10-16-2012

I'm not sure how you guys can argue that the game is power-creeping in reverse yet still argue that champions like Heimer, Karma, and Twitch still suck.

You don't get both.

Well, you do, if base balance on emotion rather than fact.


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Karthus Pushed R

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is a red herring. The power level across the board, generally, is up - we constantly add total power to the game. There's zero evidence of a progression of reverse power creep - in fact, our game is power-creeping a little.

For supports, we're going to take it on the chin if we ever nerf any of them at this point, regardless of if it is or isn't correct - the negative feelings of the nerfs we've done have really left a sour taste in people's mouth (and I can understand that).

What this means, is it's going to be even harder to get usable feedback because it's going to be a lot of frustration and anger (Hostile Miku finally lost it with the idea of another Sona nerf!). It's very, very clear to me that this will anger people - I get that.

I also want to be clear, while I'm signing off on this stuff, this is the recommendation my experts are making - and their analysis checks out. I'll ask them to come give it in person on the forums if we do decide to hit Sona so there's more context. That won't solve the anger problem (you can't out-logic emotion), but maybe at least make it understandable.

It's tough, because in cases like this we have to make a choice between making players mad or doing what makes the game better and more balanced. Making players mad isn't something we like to do, but sometimes it is something we have to do.

What I will say is, if we do push supports out, we'll get them back in - just like we did with Sona. We'll just be faster next time Out goal is not to push them out, but it's also not OK to have only Sona/Janna/Soraka used (this was literally six weeks ago in NA finals). If Sona is pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka, that's as much of a problem as if it Leona or Blitz were doing it.
What's a Janna? I don't see that played. Lulu? Huh? Soraka? Wasn't that the champion that got the visual rework, got played again for three days, but people remembered she got screwed in the butt with nerfs and sucks, I think it is!

For the love of god, leave the most boring and un-fun role in this game ALONE. Very rarely do you hear people call 'support', and to me that is an issue. The role is already boring and un-fun, and people are starting to use Gragas and **** as supports. Give up the nerfs on the wrong people (doesn't Taric have a higher win rate then Sona, hmm? Hmm? Hmm!?) and start focusing on actual broken stuff.

I'm sorry but what your saying is all and all, ****. It's painfully vague, too. Sure I may sound like an angry rambling child, but something has to be said. The direction your going with on supports is WRONG. It really, really is. Supports aren't 'too strong.' They are just too weak to fill any other role. Sona isn't pushing them out, YOU DID with nerfs.


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NoIntestines

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Just to get this out of the way first: Sona is OP. Please nerf. Not kidding.

Anyway, what I really came here to talk about is skill creep. As a game gets older and more people play it, the community as a whole becomes more skilled. This means, especially in a game with as many playable characters as League, that a lot of champions and strategies may seem under powered simply because they are under played or under skilled.

The best contemporary example is Ezreal. Ezreal didn't start having an insane win record in NA and EU because he got buffed, he become OP when people played him more and learned how to use his skills more effectively.

While Sona has been popular for longer than Ezreal, she has gone through the same pattern a couple times in recent memory. When people got more skilled at poking and harassing with Sona they realized they could play an in-your-face carry like Graves or Corki and crank up the pushing and bullying potential. Combine with a tank jungler and you get the constant tower-diving you see in parts of today's competitive scene.

How many times has Irelia been nerfed? Yet she still remains competitive because people keep getting better and discovering effective play patterns. Though skill creep is less tangible (and I imagine harder to measure) than other forms of power creep like mobility, crowd control, and raw numbers, it is nonetheless a major force in a persistent game.


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NoIntestines

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistress Amber View Post
What's a Janna? I don't see that played. Lulu? Huh? Soraka? Wasn't that the champion that got the visual rework, got played again for three days, but people remembered she got screwed in the butt with nerfs and sucks, I think it is!

For the love of god, leave the most boring and un-fun role in this game ALONE. Very rarely do you hear people call 'support', and to me that is an issue. The role is already boring and un-fun, and people are starting to use Gragas and **** as supports. Give up the nerfs on the wrong people (doesn't Taric have a higher win rate then Sona, hmm? Hmm? Hmm!?) and start focusing on actual broken stuff.

I'm sorry but what your saying is all and all, ****. It's painfully vague, too. Sure I may sound like an angry rambling child, but something has to be said. The direction your going with on supports is WRONG. It really, really is. Supports aren't 'too strong.' They are just too weak to fill any other role. Sona isn't pushing them out, YOU DID with nerfs.
Sona wins lanes by herself. Freed from the need to take the time to kill minions, she can keep two people harassed while healing herself and her lane partner all at the same time. Madness? This isn't madness. This is Sona.


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blackraven1425

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Maybe have a mastery that has a dual effect, something like a large gold per time after 3-4 minutes (to prevent abuse) but prevents you from getting last hit gold. This incentivizes supports to do their job supporting while not cutting off their ability to buy items.


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Torvin Augeri

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darmikau View Post
I'm not sure how you guys can argue that the game is power-creeping in reverse yet still argue that champions like Heimer, Karma, and Twitch still suck.

You don't get both.

Well, you do, if base balance on emotion rather than fact.
His argument isn't that the game in general is undergoing reverse power-creep. His argument is that DEDICATED SUPPORTS are undergoing reverse power-creep. Namely Sona, Soraka, Janna, etc.


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Genspirit

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's like we nerfed two of those (Graves and Corki are nerfed now) and Ez's getting swatted this patch.

I'm sorry, were you trying to call me out on something that we fixed? Thanks for letting people know it's not just support
champs getting picked does not mean you should nerf them graves corki and ez arent op they all just have strong early games no matter how much u nerf them(short of nerfing them to ****) they will always have stronger more reliable early games than other adcs thats just how they were designed as for the nerfs that u guys alrdy did they completely missed the mark imo


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Amadi

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Sona's GREAT right now. She's very good, and very strong - superb poke, good utility, and tank-level AOE CC. Saying she's bad is just...wrong.
Keyword: For a character with zero gold.

The issue is that supports need to be overpowered, if they are ever to feel rewarding. Players like to feel like they're doing something, using their resources right. Supports, by the very definition of their role, get less resources, and therefore, indirectly less fun.

Then there's the issue of in-lane poke in this game, compared to sustain. How much health does Ezreal heal with every Mystic Shot after he has Doran+Scepter, again? In order to harass him out of the lane, you need to be able to apply constant pressure much higher than that regen, plus his natural regen, plus any possible shields/heals from the enemy support. That's a lot of harass you have to be putting out, in order to make your strategy in lane relevant.