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Riot, all this mess about incoming Sona nerfs is a proof of reverse power creep.

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The Toad

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Part of the problem is that it's very hard for normal players to gauge a support's strength when they depend on things such as strong auras or effective CC/utility. Taric is an amazing support because of his ridiculous armor aura and yet no-one's screaming "QQ NERF TARIC TOO OUTRAGEOUS FOR MY JIMMIES". I think giving out some additional data in regards to nerfs/buffs, especially in regards to supports (whose power level can be hard to understand), would go a long way for helping us understand why the nerfs are justified.


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Soliasildo

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
program01:
Morello, you all, as a team, are shooting yourselves in the foot with this stuff. Nerfing Sona, the only dedicated support worth using? Might as well just leave the role out of the game, and let champs who belong to other roles but have a little CC/Utility take over, for what it's worth.

There're still some of us that enjoy playing support characters, and we don't have them anymore! There were few things as rewarding as clutch-shielding your teammate, as Janna, when you got ganked, or as saving an ally's life from across the map with Soraka's ultimate, when they were champs worth picking. You even nerfed Lulu without a smidgen of playtesting in actual high-level play!
I won't even talk about Karma. It's not worth the time until you rework her completely (an ulti and passive-ish mantra expenditure would be nice. Just saying).

Puttin pretty faces on those champions won't make them usable again. Reworks and buffs will. As Soraka's new artwork and model are stunning, but don't change the problems she has, Sona's Arcade skin is not a fair tradeoff for shoving a nerf-grenade down her throat.

Stop this trend of making the game unfun for us dedicated (or almost dedicated) support players. We don't want to be relegated to wardbots. We'd like to keep having an impact in the outcome of the game. We endure countless minutes of babysitting JUST for that play that turns the game around.
Don't take THAT away from us.


This. Just because you want all of your super-action kill lanes since they bring in more views for esports doesn't mean you should ruin the game for people who like supporting with real supports.


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Kagami

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Morello:
What I will say is, if we do push supports out, we'll get them back in - just like we did with Sona. We'll just be faster next time Out goal is not to push them out, but it's also not OK to have only Sona/Janna/Soraka used (this was literally six weeks ago in NA finals). If Sona is pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka, that's as much of a problem as if it Leona or Blitz were doing it.


I'd like to argue blitz pushes out Soraka and Janna much more than Sona does atm despite Sona having more tournament play, if you look at stats in ranked despite Blitz being a semi-popular ban he still sees more play than almost Soraka, Janna, and lulu combined in ranked play atm, so I question how Sona can be viewed as an Issue and Blitz isn't? I mean Blitz so being very strong definitely pushes out Leona, cause he's just better in too many ways compared to her.

P.S. Why is Lux is allowed to be a good support and strong mage, while Lulu is a nerfed into the ground mage, and a mediocre Support?(She lost EVERY game she was picked in tournament play in the regionals and WC and generally feels weak because of her mana issues as a support and over nerfed AP ratios as a Mid)


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Clerigon

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Ledinax:
What happens when you nerf champion B because he's strong compared to/against champion A?

In an ideal world, they would be balanced. However, this world is far of a fair one. So what happens is that now champion B is considered worth picking, and god have mercy if he's good now that champion A is not viable.

So, what happens here is that, after a few months (and/or a tournament), champion B is nerfed and is now worse than champion A post-nerf...

And the cycle continues until they both are unviable and reaaaally weak, moment in which neither of them is picked at all. Now the viable champions in A and B role are C and D. And C is stronger than D...

You see where this is going? Yup, reverse power creep. Nerf everything that is relatively strong until everything is weak.

And this are supports in a nutshell.


Thats something i dont understand when morello and phreak said: we always nerf the top 3 ad.

What if you help other underused ad carrys like ashe, tristana, draven, varus, to reach that level? like you said, we have A-B-C-D-E-F carrys, but A-B-C are permapicked, because D-E-F are underpowered in everything, mobility, damage, burst, etc. Now riot keep nerfing A-B-C, so now, the D-E-F are picked because is not worth anymore to pick A-B-C, so those champions enter in the cycle of nerf.

Look at sona. Soraka, alistar and taric was the top 3 suppots, soraka and alistar nerf, janna picked, janna nerf, sona picked, next patch; sona nerfs. HUE


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Ledinax

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Gath Immortal:
I'm not disagreeing, sona is really strong but I don't think sona is the problem, she never really was. The problem is in fact that supports keep getting nerfed in cycles, instead of nefing sona try buffing other supports or reworking karma, increasing the pool of viable supports will make sona far less ubiquitous.


+1 to this guy, he sums up pretty well what I think on the matter. Sona has skyrocketed only because she is the best partner for Ezreal, and because her biggest counter (Blitzcrank) is now permabanned (I think she also kinda counters Leona in Solo Queue).

Quote:
Morello:
There's zero evidence of a progression of reverse power creep - in fact, our game is power-creeping a little.

That is true for top and mid in a way, but certainly not for supports. They only have recieved nerfs for the last year (except Sona, who received some buffs a while ago, and even then she wasn't used until recently).

Quote:
Morello:
If Sona is pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka, that's as much of a problem as if it Leona or Blitz were doing it.

I only want to clarify one thing: they actually ARE doing it.


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Eiales

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Morello:
Comparing a champion that was widly overpowered (let's go look at those release numbers, eh?) to the current state isn't a valid data set. By this logic, Vlad is terrible and unusable, as is TF and Zyra :P

Sona's GREAT right now. She's very good, and very strong - superb poke, good utility, and tank-level AOE CC. Saying she's bad is just...wrong.


Sona's "GREAT" compared to other supports. Supports are only used because a fed AD kills everything. There's literally no evidence here to show whether Sona is overpowered or other supports are underpowered, and frankly, maybe you should try the other way around first because we've been dealing with this (feeling useless) for too long already.
Soon "support" will be coming down to picking any champion and going afk in base. Zilean, Janna and TF will be the "best" supports.


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Zuphlas

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Morello:
**Making players mad isn't something we like to do, but sometimes it is something we have to do.

*What I will say is, if we do push supports out, we'll get them back in - just like we did with Sona. We'll just be faster next time


**I'm glad you recognize that, but please keep in mind that for the most part this is pretty much all you do to support players. Very rarely do you guys do anything at all that makes support players even remotely happy. I don't know that there's anything you can do about it at this point, but just know that you guys are pretty much going to just continually piss off supports until you get the balance down packed. What I'm getting at is that I think I speak for us all when I say please get on the ball already and make it happen (figuring supports out), the sooner the better. Better to take your veggies all in one go than to draw it out.


*You'll be held to that now that you've said it, or you'll face a huge wave of distrust and general dislike. Again, this is a "learn fast or die trying" situation. Either you and your team are going to utterly tank on this front and lose a lot of respect or you'll make it work right this time. Don't let us down please, most of us don't want to not trust you.


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The Toad

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Ledinax:
+1 to this guy, he sums up pretty well what I think on the matter. Sona has skyrocketed only because she is the best partner for Ezreal, and because her biggest counter (Blitzcrank) is now permabanned (I think she also kinda counters Leona in Solo Queue).


I think this is a big part of it. Sona's power doesn't come from her kit but rather the fact that she synergizes so well with and against other strong picks. However, it doesn't really matter where he power comes from as the data will still show that she's overly strong and needs to be adjusted accordingly, perhaps in a way that weakens that synergy.

So long as Ezreal is strong, and Sona is safe, Sona-Ezreal will always be a scary lane.


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valce1

Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Morello:

What I will say is, if we do push supports out, we'll get them back in - just like we did with Sona. We'll just be faster next time Out goal is not to push them out, but it's also not OK to have only Sona/Janna/Soraka used (this was literally six weeks ago in NA finals). If Sona is pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka, that's as much of a problem as if it Leona or Blitz were doing it.


Sona is the only caster-type support that really feels rewarding to play. She's actually a sterling example of great champion design. I would much rather see you buff Lulu, Janna and Soraka in some way.

I understand the main difficulty in buffing caster supports is that they could become OP mids. But how about adding something like Leona's passive to their abilities? An ability kicker that only works if there is an allied champion champion present.

Examples:

Janna's shield causes all of the target's auto-attacks to apply a debuff that can be consumed by allied champions to deal additional %-damage, rewarding good combo play.

Soraka's E when used on allies allows their next auto-attack in the next 1.5s to stun the target for 0.5s, rewarding good timing.

Damage dealt by Pix could heal nearby allied champions.

It's about giving supports interesting choices to make. Does Janna shield herself to maximize the effect of the damage debuff, or does she shield the ADC to protect him from harm?

Blargh, just my 0.02p


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Mirelyght

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Morello:
(you can't out-logic emotion).



well said.....also Twitch