Riot, all this mess about incoming Sona nerfs is a proof of reverse power creep.

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JoeTheDuckRider

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is a red herring. The power level across the board, generally, is up - we constantly add total power to the game. There's zero evidence of a progression of reverse power creep - in fact, our game is power-creeping a little.

For supports, we're going to take it on the chin if we ever nerf any of them at this point, regardless of if it is or isn't correct - the negative feelings of the nerfs we've done have really left a sour taste in people's mouth (and I can understand that).

What this means, is it's going to be even harder to get usable feedback because it's going to be a lot of frustration and anger (Hostile Miku finally lost it with the idea of another Sona nerf!). It's very, very clear to me that this will anger people - I get that.

I also want to be clear, while I'm signing off on this stuff, this is the recommendation my experts are making - and their analysis checks out. I'll ask them to come give it in person on the forums if we do decide to hit Sona so there's more context. That won't solve the anger problem (you can't out-logic emotion), but maybe at least make it understandable.

It's tough, because in cases like this we have to make a choice between making players mad or doing what makes the game better and more balanced. Making players mad isn't something we like to do, but sometimes it is something we have to do.

What I will say is, if we do push supports out, we'll get them back in - just like we did with Sona. We'll just be faster next time Out goal is not to push them out, but it's also not OK to have only Sona/Janna/Soraka used (this was literally six weeks ago in NA finals). If Sona is pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka, that's as much of a problem as if it Leona or Blitz were doing it.
So when is blitz going to get nerfed?


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

10-16-2012

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Originally Posted by ActionButlerGO View Post
Remind me again, does Darius' ult still deal a metric ton of true damage and refresh-on-kill?
They realize it... they just haven't thought of a creative alternative. His Ult is the only reason he's a strong pick.


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Reaper

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10-16-2012

bring other supports to sona's level


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Gath Immortal

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Comparing a champion that was widly overpowered (let's go look at those release numbers, eh?) to the current state isn't a valid data set. By this logic, Vlad is terrible and unusable, as is TF and Zyra :P

Sona's GREAT right now. She's very good, and very strong - superb poke, good utility, and tank-level AOE CC. Saying she's bad is just...wrong.
I'm not disagreeing, sona is really strong but I don't think sona is the problem, she never really was. The problem is in fact that supports keep getting nerfed in cycles, instead of nefing sona try buffing other supports or reworking karma, increasing the pool of viable supports will make sona far less ubiquitous.


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GreekAsTheGods

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTheDuckRider View Post
So when is blitz going to get nerfed?
how does one nerf blitz? he's picked almost entirely because of his Q as in many situation it's a guaranteed pick for your team...

about the only way you can truly nerf blitz is if his pull gives his kidnap victim massive armor and MR for a few seconds after the pull. or something to that affect.

otherwise, blitz will always have the potential to give his team a free kill just by hitting his Q. i've won my team many games by hitting clutch pulls, or if not won the games i've atleast turned them in my team's favor.

blitz un-nerfable.


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Postal Miku

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is a red herring. The power level across the board, generally, is up - we constantly add total power to the game. There's zero evidence of a progression of reverse power creep - in fact, our game is power-creeping a little.

For supports, we're going to take it on the chin if we ever nerf any of them at this point, regardless of if it is or isn't correct - the negative feelings of the nerfs we've done have really left a sour taste in people's mouth (and I can understand that).

What this means, is it's going to be even harder to get usable feedback because it's going to be a lot of frustration and anger (Hostile Miku finally lost it with the idea of another Sona nerf!). It's very, very clear to me that this will anger people - I get that.

I also want to be clear, while I'm signing off on this stuff, this is the recommendation my experts are making - and their analysis checks out. I'll ask them to come give it in person on the forums if we do decide to hit Sona so there's more context. That won't solve the anger problem (you can't out-logic emotion), but maybe at least make it understandable.

It's tough, because in cases like this we have to make a choice between making players mad or doing what makes the game better and more balanced. Making players mad isn't something we like to do, but sometimes it is something we have to do.

What I will say is, if we do push supports out, we'll get them back in - just like we did with Sona. We'll just be faster next time Out goal is not to push them out, but it's also not OK to have only Sona/Janna/Soraka used (this was literally six weeks ago in NA finals). If Sona is pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka, that's as much of a problem as if it Leona or Blitz were doing it.
Donchu badmouth me boy, i'm fine with a Sona nerf as long as it dosen't put her at the bottom of the deck again as you should know

We also want to know if Blitz is getting nerfed too, he needs them, he actually plays better then Sona does in terms of supporting which is why he is constantly banned, you should be looking at him too

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods View Post
how does one nerf blitz? he's picked almost entirely because of his Q as in many situation it's a guaranteed pick for your team...

about the only way you can truly nerf blitz is if his pull gives his kidnap victim massive armor and MR for a few seconds after the pull. or something to that affect.

otherwise, blitz will always have the potential to give his team a free kill just by hitting his Q. i've won my team many games by hitting clutch pulls, or if not won the games i've atleast turned them in my team's favor.

blitz un-nerfable.
Range on hook scales with spell level
Damage nerf on R and Q
MS nerfed on W
Base stat nerfs

There is plenty to pick from, it's not just his Q what is the problem, it's the fact he is a tanky, damaging, CC beast with a skill what is a one shot wonder in getting people killed


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program01

Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is a red herring. The power level across the board, generally, is up - we constantly add total power to the game. There's zero evidence of a progression of reverse power creep - in fact, our game is power-creeping a little.

For supports, we're going to take it on the chin if we ever nerf any of them at this point, regardless of if it is or isn't correct - the negative feelings of the nerfs we've done have really left a sour taste in people's mouth (and I can understand that).

What this means, is it's going to be even harder to get usable feedback because it's going to be a lot of frustration and anger (Hostile Miku finally lost it with the idea of another Sona nerf!). It's very, very clear to me that this will anger people - I get that.

I also want to be clear, while I'm signing off on this stuff, this is the recommendation my experts are making - and their analysis checks out. I'll ask them to come give it in person on the forums if we do decide to hit Sona so there's more context. That won't solve the anger problem (you can't out-logic emotion), but maybe at least make it understandable.

It's tough, because in cases like this we have to make a choice between making players mad or doing what makes the game better and more balanced. Making players mad isn't something we like to do, but sometimes it is something we have to do.

What I will say is, if we do push supports out, we'll get them back in - just like we did with Sona. We'll just be faster next time Out goal is not to push them out, but it's also not OK to have only Sona/Janna/Soraka used (this was literally six weeks ago in NA finals). If Sona is pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka, that's as much of a problem as if it Leona or Blitz were doing it.
Morello, you all, as a team, are shooting yourselves in the foot with this stuff. Nerfing Sona, the only dedicated support worth using? Might as well just leave the role out of the game, and let champs who belong to other roles but have a little CC/Utility take over, for what it's worth.

There're still some of us that enjoy playing support characters, and we don't have them anymore! There were few things as rewarding as clutch-shielding your teammate, as Janna, when you got ganked, or as saving an ally's life from across the map with Soraka's ultimate, when they were champs worth picking. You even nerfed Lulu without a smidgen of playtesting in actual high-level play!
I won't even talk about Karma. It's not worth the time until you rework her completely (an ulti and passive-ish mantra expenditure would be nice. Just saying).

Puttin pretty faces on those champions won't make them usable again. Reworks and buffs will. As Soraka's new artwork and model are stunning, but don't change the problems she has, Sona's Arcade skin is not a fair tradeoff for shoving a nerf-grenade down her throat.

Stop this trend of making the game unfun for us dedicated (or almost dedicated) support players. We don't want to be relegated to wardbots. We'd like to keep having an impact in the outcome of the game. We endure countless minutes of babysitting JUST for that play that turns the game around.
Don't take THAT away from us.


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xephh

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's like we nerfed two of those (Graves and Corki are nerfed now) and Ez's getting swatted this patch.

I'm sorry, were you trying to call me out on something that we fixed? Thanks for letting people know it's not just support :)
SON, NERF MASTER SUCK TOWN JUST NERFED YOUR **** TALKING SKILLS.

with all due respect of course.


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Kaalika

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Sona is getting picked most often bc of Taric countering other supports, better supports being banned outright, and bc of Ez+Sona being a decent bot lane.

Ez is getting nerfed. Buff other supports then check the result of that before touching Sona.


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MandyMemory

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's like we nerfed two of those (Graves and Corki are nerfed now) and Ez's getting swatted this patch.

I'm sorry, were you trying to call me out on something that we fixed? Thanks for letting people know it's not just support
Don't forget that Ez got nerfed recently too.

I wouldn't mind seeing Cait get some usability tweaks. I personally would like her more if there was a way to toggle her dash so it could go toward your mouse instead of away.