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Riot, all this mess about incoming Sona nerfs is a proof of reverse power creep.

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Xaedo

Senior Member

02-15-2013

Ziggs buffs! Im very happy


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Raptearer

Recruiter

02-15-2013

A lot of the lesser AP casters took serious hits this Season. Besides Ziggs, Xerath, Zilean and Viktor to name a few, also took huge blows to their power and damage because of the excessive tankiness. It feels like slowly the burst AP carry mid is being driven out of existence.


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EFG

Senior Member

02-15-2013

Quote:
Morello:
I think there's several areas of our game where, if I wasn't worried about the shock value to the playerbase, we'd tear an entire subset of things in half to get power back in check.


I double dog dare you.


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Inherent

Junior Member

02-15-2013

Quote:
Morello:
The only one of those roles that has any viability problem is burst (whether assassin or AP). It's something we need to fix, but it might not be the way you expect.

Morello, with all the health nerfs, how are you going to help out champions that rely on health with a "get-health-or-be-useless" mindset like Olaf and Mundo?


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March of Dimes

Senior Member

02-16-2013

Quote:
Morello:
Support items (via gold) were one of the most buffed classes in Season 3 (maybe except bruisers...BRUUUUISSEEEERSSSSS!), but there's still way more upward powercreep than there is power loss. This is becoming more problematic in characters who have low skill ceilings (looking at you many Fighters and Taric!) because if they're as strong as other options in a myriad of situations, then that invalidates ever taking the risk or preference choice to play something that does allow you to showcase skill.


Thanks for the reply. Also, thanks for the S3 buffs to support itemization - they help & I don't want to seem ungrateful. However, I'd argue the support class is still pretty imbalanced in favor of those supports with lower skill ceilings (Blitz/Taric) than the skill-dependent ones (namely, Janna). Alternatively, maybe it's just easier for more forgiving supports (same as above, and add Leona) than those who have to worry about position/dying (Janna/Soraka/Sona), not to mention the greater value of the first group of supports in lane compared to the 2nd (getting kills & farm vs getting farm). Along those same lines, I eagerly await the nerfs to fighters.

However, I still don't get the part (stated elsewhere) about needing to nerf support once they became 0 CS, as also questioned by Arcane Azmadi:

Quote:
Arcane Azmadi:
Wait. Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. Let me see if I'm getting you here, because I suspect I'm misunderstanding you.

You're saying the supports were balanced around a time when they farmed gold and bought items like everyone else. In season 2 people STOPPED doing this and started running them as 0 CS, relying on their base values only for their skills.

So your response to this was to generally nerf supports across the board? Why? I don't get it? OK, maybe the 0 CS support meta might have highlighted that their base kits gave them a bit more utility than you'd suspected, but why did that lead to you doing things like nerfing Janna's AP ratios (since she barely ever buys any AP anyway)? Or murdering Soraka's cooldowns (so now that she's being played without gold you make her gold-dependant by making her desperately need CDR)? It's like you see how the new meta is affecting the support class and respond by changing them to make their life (which had suddenly been made a lot more BORING by being reduced to the role of full-time, gold-starved babysitters) even MORE unpleasant and difficult!

I don't get it, Morello. Really, I don't.


Lastly, has anyone looked into the fact that health has been the better defensive stat all along, and the nerfs to resistances actually pushed bruisers into what was always more efficient itemization? This, all while nerfing ADC damage and buffing bruiser itemization... I know ADC is still played competitively, but man does it feel bad this season.


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Beholder Mage

Senior Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
Morello:

A lot of people love fighters. Lowering their total power is going to make support nerfs look popular =/

I partially agree with this, but think you could mitigate the outcry by hitting fighters as a collective.

Supports were very much hit one by one, in a role largely defined by the actions of three characters - support, ADC and jungle. In contrast, top is largely defined through the interactions of two top laners - so if A gets nerfed, and B also gets nerfed, the A vs B matchup will seem less drastically different - and perhaps even more enjoyable.

In contrast, the case with support nerfs were drips and drabs, along with the (required) ADC nerfs. This led to players seeing a long campaign against specific characters instead of a general reduction in power level. Worse - the laners they were up against (ADCs) gained an even larger slice of the power pie, whereas in top lane, the power pie is all one characters.


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IS1b7b17a2e4f03260b1f79

Senior Member

02-18-2013

@Morello @Phreak You can answer that you gave up on that but I really need to ask.

Why not add a new thing to Tryndamere's kit that help him in teamfights, but NOT in lane phase?
He is already countered by most matchups and even if he manages to farm, it's not rewarding with the current amount of CC. And I'm running Cleanse and I don't hesitate to add QSS.
I was thinking about giving him a one-time CC removal just like the first part of Cleanse. It would fit his ultimate.
The problem with pure autoattackers is that when they get CC'd, the damage they would deal during that time is completely lost, as opposed to a fighter, who get's stunned and his ability casts(his dmg source) is only delayed and not wiped out.






Or immunity to healing reductions during his ultimate would be so impactful too, but that would buff his lane too hard. But he has unique kit, so unique passive like that would be fitting.


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

02-19-2013

Quote:
Phreak:
For example, Short Fuse dealing more damage to turrets.

A few months back I heard that Ziggs' best purpose was probably "Siege mage." Every one of his abiliities is a poke. He zones the enemy team so they can't engage. He brings down turrets. If your team is looking for an early victory, push all lanes, and start a 5 man push early, he's the guy you bring to make sure they can't engage on you while you bring down turrets.

Now that said, this is only one random sentence months back. Don't know if that's the actual direction.

Compare to Brand who just deals all the damages or Nidalee who makes pushing work by harassing and healing.


Thanks for explaining the niche thing, and I certainly hope he isn't taking off the direction you described. As apparently your "go to" for early victory is jungle heiemerdinger (lol, you seen that game yet?).

I'm not happy with ziggs fufilling that kind of rule, especially for being the kind of lane bully he is. I just think if you guys lowered the duration of his minefields, and lower the cooldown on it drastically so he can reposition them often, he'd be very useful. But until you guys do so I just don't see any sort of tweaking like you've been doing useful on him. I feel like Lux is a almost as good as ziggs is in lane, is infinitely more useful out of lane than ziggs is.

Having low cooldown minefields would do the trick. Let me use them twice in a fight.


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DefectiveAccount

Senior Member

02-19-2013

I cant wait for the fighters nerf


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Derpmaciaa

Senior Member

02-19-2013

Go the other way. Just buff instead of nerfing and bring them all to the same level. Kinda like Dota.
At least you will make champions that are less boring, and a game that is more fun.