Riot, all this mess about incoming Sona nerfs is a proof of reverse power creep.

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RacoonHail

Member

10-16-2012

@Morello

This might not apply, but it is something I always fear in these competitive games, that you blance to the pro set and not the average player set. In my mind that is what caused Starcraft II to fall off and not have the same following that say Starcraft I had, to many of the average players were pushed out by changes to the game that they almost never encounter because their skill set never made a unit, or ability exploitable, but the nerfs would drive them away from using units entirely.

The same could be happening here where I high skill level with a character (lets pick on Trundle) makes him suddenly goldy and all the pros pick him because they can pratice with and play him at a high skill level. He is nerfed as a result and falls out of flavour with the pros and those nerfs actually mean that average players who play as him and are not as skillful and therefore not actually a problem cannot play him anymore because another character just fills the role better now, there is no point to playing Trundle.

I don't mean that is definitely happening and maybe you base your changes on more than just what the Pros pick/ban, but please do not only balance the game for them. They do not even use all the champions, except as a joke (example Sejuani pick in the Allstar game).


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Ledinax

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Bump! We need to keep discussking this issue.


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SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is a red herring. The power level across the board, generally, is up - we constantly add total power to the game. There's zero evidence of a progression of reverse power creep - in fact, our game is power-creeping a little.
I agree that power creep is happening in general in LoL, but I think you actually have power bleed in supports. Top lane gets something new and creepy every month, while you haven't released anything that plays in bot lane for some time. The champs that see play in the support role are merely the ones that have been nerfed least.

Bigger picture, I don't really understand why releasing ever more powerful top and mid champions is okay, but we need to keep making supports less and less impactful. They are already the position with the least ability to make plays, and other MOBA games seem to work just fine with supports that are more impactful.


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Ashfordjim

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Apparently the beatings will continue until morale improves.


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The Juice

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is a red herring. The power level across the board, generally, is up - we constantly add total power to the game. There's zero evidence of a progression of reverse power creep - in fact, our game is power-creeping a little.

For supports, we're going to take it on the chin if we ever nerf any of them at this point, regardless of if it is or isn't correct - the negative feelings of the nerfs we've done have really left a sour taste in people's mouth (and I can understand that).

What this means, is it's going to be even harder to get usable feedback because it's going to be a lot of frustration and anger (Hostile Miku finally lost it with the idea of another Sona nerf!). It's very, very clear to me that this will anger people - I get that.

I also want to be clear, while I'm signing off on this stuff, this is the recommendation my experts are making - and their analysis checks out. I'll ask them to come give it in person on the forums if we do decide to hit Sona so there's more context. That won't solve the anger problem (you can't out-logic emotion), but maybe at least make it understandable.

It's tough, because in cases like this we have to make a choice between making players mad or doing what makes the game better and more balanced. Making players mad isn't something we like to do, but sometimes it is something we have to do.

What I will say is, if we do push supports out, we'll get them back in - just like we did with Sona. We'll just be faster next time Out goal is not to push them out, but it's also not OK to have only Sona/Janna/Soraka used (this was literally six weeks ago in NA finals). If Sona is pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka, that's as much of a problem as if it Leona or Blitz were doing it.
Sona AND Taric are the ones pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka. All we saw was Sona, Taric, Leona, Blitz, Lux twice and Lulu once. Riot has only looked at supports that sustain, and not at supports that do other things, like Nunu's free phantom dancer, or Taric's free chain vest, or Blitzcrank's safe aggression. I don't think any of them are broken (Nunu's W is broken, but other than that the champion is fine) but they are all incredibly strong and are hard to kill. Plus Taric sustains, but not once has he been looked at. All you've done is focus on Sona, Janna, and Soraka.


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AmbushIntheDark

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's like we nerfed two of those (Graves and Corki are nerfed now) and Ez's getting swatted this patch.

I'm sorry, were you trying to call me out on something that we fixed? Thanks for letting people know it's not just support

Morello, I only ask that you do the ADC changes BEFORE the Support changes. I feel like riot doesnt understand that the strength of any given support is only because of what ADC they combo with. Sona is good because she makes Ezreal and Corki's poke stupid strong. Blitz and Ali are good because graves does such a stupid amount of damage. Any AD nerfs/buff effect supports just as hard, if not more. Remember when every game was Sivir- Taric? Suddenly Sivir gets gutted and Taric does off the radar completely until people figure out how OP graves is. If Ad carrys like MF, Draven Varus or Trist could actually compete with the 3 crazy ones then that opens up more possibilitys for support. Nunu and Janna would become actually decent picks again. ( I dont care what you think you know about Janna, but that last nerf RUINED her to the point where i would take any alternative to her.)


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Pryotra

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
If Sona is pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka, that's as much of a problem as if it Leona or Blitz were doing it.
Because NO ONE sees that happening

0/10

Come on Morello, I gave up League till Heimer makes a comeback (5th of Never), and I still know that they are already starting to dominate alot of bot lanes in SR. What is your excuse?


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FrankyCentaur

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's like we nerfed two of those (Graves and Corki are nerfed now) and Ez's getting swatted this patch.

I'm sorry, were you trying to call me out on something that we fixed? Thanks for letting people know it's not just support
You did fix it, it just took like, what, forever? The Holy AD trinity is something that's literally been around for months- and you're right, it is really only Ez now. But.... should of happened before WC in my opinion.

And it's just really part of how the game is played and the people who play it. I never felt that Kog and Vayne were underpowered- I bet my friends we'd be seeing a lot of those two in the finals, and everyone was like "NO, HOLY TRINITY!" I proved them wrong.

Again, it's just Ez.


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SavagePeaches

Senior Member

10-16-2012

I still think Graves' burst is pretty stupid for an ad carry.


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grim1

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeFalcon View Post
Sona's definitely strong right now, but does that mean she needs a nerf?

The most common supports right now are Sona, Blitzcrank and Leona as far as I know. Cant Janna, Soraka and Lulu just get a minor buff so they can be just as viable? They're not weak but there's a reason they're not used as much.
The game has already been power creeping. They can't really afford to just boost all champions to a specific point when there are quite a few that are already too strong.