Syndra Quality of Life/Useability changes

First Riot Post
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Primanocte

Senior Member

10-19-2012

I wish Riot put this much work into all their champs.


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Crevox

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Senior Member

10-19-2012

Quote:
Regarding that bug thanks for the video, a demonstration there was actually extremely useful. It looks like what's happening is that when the throw location is partially obscured by impassable terrain (in this case the remains of a tower) the throw falls dramatically short, in the same way Trist's Rocket Jump would. I've got some improvements that will help out with that in the PBE QoL changes, now that that's identified though I'll give things another sweep and see if there's any further improvements possible.
The glitch occurs in any location. It occurs because the stun of the ball shot (E) is ending while the minion is in flight when you throw it. This causes it to abruptly fall immediately.

You can test this in any situation, any location, as long as the target is stunnable. I've tested this on both Proving Grounds and Summoner's Rift, and it happens MANY times to me while actually playing her.


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Rotter Zwerg

Senior Member

10-19-2012

Make her spheres explode instead of fizzing, then there would be an incentive to actually position the spheres outside of stunning someone and make her ultimate that much more usefull in teamfights.


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Bad Morde Bot

Senior Member

10-19-2012

Hi Meddler,

I saw there were some discussion about her passive. Can you consider changing it to the following:

Syndra's first basic ability that reaches rank 5 gains extra effects.

Yes, the first ability only. To make it worthwhile to apply it to her W or E, make the bonuses on W and E a little stronger (say, for W, slow duration goes up from 1.5 to 2.5; for E double the cone width; for Q it can probably be the same as before or reduce the base cooldown instead of increasing its damage).

Most of the passive abilities in the game currently are either the essence of the champion (e.g. Annie without her passive does not "feel" like Annie anymore), or provides some sort of bonus that requires a player to do specific things or make specific decisions (e.g. Cassiopeia without her passive is still Cassiopeia, but you need to spam her spells in a row to get reduced mana cost; e.g. when Lux lands a spell on her opponent, she can choose to go into auto range to proc her passive to do more damage, or she can choose not to do it because it's too dangerous). Syndra currently does not have that, because at worst her passive gives her incentive to maximize one skill first - but as of right now I can't think of a single champion that does not want to maximize one basic ability at level 9. I think my proposal gives the player some more decisions to make: which skill do I want the passive to act upon? More damage or more utility? If I want the passve on my E, should I keep my Q at level 4 for now?


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-19-2012
23 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox View Post
The glitch occurs in any location. It occurs because the stun of the ball shot (E) is ending while the minion is in flight when you throw it. This causes it to abruptly fall immediately.

You can test this in any situation, any location, as long as the target is stunnable. I've tested this on both Proving Grounds and Summoner's Rift, and it happens MANY times to me while actually playing her.
Ah, I see, sorry misunderstood there. Sounds like what's happening is that the game's detecting the end of the previous CC as the end of the CC applied by Force of Will to targets while they're being thrown. I'll need to look at the spell's script to figure out further details but that's a great start. Thanks again.


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Crevox

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Senior Member

10-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Ah, I see, sorry misunderstood there. Sounds like what's happening is that the game's detecting the end of the previous CC as the end of the CC applied by Force of Will to targets while they're being thrown. I'll need to look at the spell's script to figure out further details but that's a great start. Thanks again.
Yes, that's exactly what I thought too.

Thanks for looking into it!

-Crevox


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XNinjaFuHiya

Senior Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Ah, I see, sorry misunderstood there. Sounds like what's happening is that the game's detecting the end of the previous CC as the end of the CC applied by Force of Will to targets while they're being thrown. I'll need to look at the spell's script to figure out further details but that's a great start. Thanks again.
Hey Meddler, sorry to bother you again but can you take a look at Trundle's scripts and fix his ability delay?


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Stexe

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Adjudicator

10-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stexe View Post
I think one of the core issues behind Syndra is the lack of synergy between her skills. Yes, you don't need synergy to be effective, but when a kit has interesting interactions between skills you feel bad when you don't utilize them to their fullest potential.

The problem I'm seeing with her is that there is little incentive to use Scatter the Weak with Dark Sphere; unless you manage to hit an enemy with Dark Sphere and then use Scatter the Weak on the Dark Sphere as they run away. If you want to throw a Dark Sphere in front of you and then Scatter the Weak to knock it into an enemy you're forgoing the damage on Dark Sphere's land (it is nearly impossible to both hit an enemy with Dark Sphere so that you can then push the Dark Sphere with Scatter the Weak onto the same target).

I'd like the ability to combo her skills while still doing damage or something to the enemy. What if Force of Will's throw did damage to (or slowed) all targets that the held thing passed through? Then you could Dark Sphere on the enemy, Force of Will the Dark Sphere and throw it in front of yourself (damaging the enemy as the Sphere was thrown through them), and then use Scatter the Weak to knock the Dark Sphere into the enemy.

Another problem Syndra has is that her ultimate is geared to do massive damage to a single target, but requires a huge set up of Dark Spheres to be effective. In a team fight you want to either nuke a target down before they can use their skills, or do AoE damage so that the enemy is significantly weakened when the fight begins. Syndra's Unleashed Power does neither of these things -- she has to set up Dark Spheres in a team fight to be able to burst down a single target that has most likely already used all their skills or done all their damage. The solution to this in my eyes is fairly complex -- but a good step in the right direction might be to make all thrown Dark Spheres do damage to enemies they pass through. This could be used to do massive AoE damage if the enemy team is clustered and let's her set up -- as opposed to what she does now which is basically kill an already weak target because it took her so long to set up.

If you look at all successful casters they do 1 or 2 things with their ultimate: AoE or single target damage at the start of the fight.

AoE: Anivia, Annie, Cassiopeia, Evelynn, Fiddlesticks, Fizz, Karthus, Lux, Morgana, Orianna, Rumble, Swain, Viktor, Vladimir, Xerath, Ziggs, Zyra

Single: Cho'Gath, Diana, Malzahar, Mordekaiser, Veigar

Either Or: Ahri, Brand, LeBlanc, Kennen

Utility: Heimerdinger, Kassadin, Twisted Fate

Now looking at the list you'll see that every single target caster is generally about using their ultimate at the start of a fight. Malzahar might be an exception because you'd want a Voidling and a Null Zone, but you can a Voidling set up LONG before the battle and Null Zone is an instant cast. Cho'Gath might be an exception too because killing with his nuke gives him a Feast stack -- but that is fairly minor and most pro Cho'Gath users will ult to burst a single target down quickly. Diana might take some set up with requiring a Q to hit in order to double ult, but again that's a single skill cast and not 3 to 4 like Syndra requires.

Syndra is the weird exception to everything else. She requires a large amount of set up that she can't maintain from a previous battle and she does no AoE with her ultimate. While it might be cool to be unique, it just doesn't work when compared to the other options available.
Curious on your thoughts on this Meddler. Anything? =)


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Crevox

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Senior Member

10-25-2012

Bug is not resolved at all. Syndra remains broken.


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Moths Unlimited

Junior Member

10-25-2012

Hope I'm not too late to the party. I wanted to blather on about some stuff too!

First off I find it strange how balls knockback even as they stun. If you're trying to stun an enemy at a range outside your cone, most likely you're wanting that stun to immobilize the enemy so you can land a further Q/W and edge in to cast R. Knocking them back at that distance just nudges them to safety. Why not take the knockback off the balls so the skill can better function offensively at long range?

I'd also parrot what's been said about her passive. It's empty and unrewarding; hell, it actually makes me feel like I'm being punished ingame for not being level 18 yet. In my opinion, her max rank bonuses should fundamentally change the relationship she has with her balls (talk about a sentence I never thought I'd be writing...) I have some farfetched ideas:

Max Q - Orbs gain materiality, becoming impassable terrain to enemies.
Max W - Along with your primary selection, you hoist all other balls within a moderate range and they're all thrown together in a loose formation at the target. Each applies its AOE separately; multiple hits won't stack damage but will refresh slow duration (like glitterlance).
Max E - Stunning an enemy with a ball causes that ball to duplicate. The duplicate ricochets in a random direction (and can also stun - though not again to the same target). Flung balls can only duplicate once.
Max R - Balls deal damage to all enemies in their path as they rush through the ulted target (resulting AOE would probably look like a bowtie: >*< centered around the target.)

And like Garnet suggested above, she'd receive only the benefits of the first skill that she maxed. Each choice would define her:

-Max Q would maximize her utility, with each ball doubling as a tiny obstruction to frustrate the enemy or even closing off entire corridors after an ult.
-Max W would maximize her spam, giving her a wider range and coverage on her W toss thanks to the multiple projectiles.
-Max E would maximize her single target nuke damage. A skilled syndra who leads with a scatterstun will spawn one or two extra balls that she can combo with her ult.
-Max R would seriously maximize her lategame potential at the equally serious cost of holding off on maxing her QWE skills until 17. She'd become a classic ticking time bomb who explodes at 16 with a supercharged ult that can deal most or all of its primary damage to nearby secondary targets with good enough positioning.

Two cents. Probably tl;dr, but it's hard to stop myself when she could just be so much more than her currently lukewarm state.