Syndra Quality of Life/Useability changes

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azealia banks

Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grann Brigitte View Post
I realize that this thread is about discussing the current proposed changes to Syndra, but it would have been nice if Meddler would at least address my issue with her passive (posted on page 9), which I feel is something which absolutely has to be changed for Syndra to ever be anything but bad Orriana.

I just don't understand how you can even be looking at QOL and usability changes when a cornerstone of her design and flavor is pretty much just a blank space. The champion is incomplete: finish the concept and then polish it.

Look at other AP carry passives; they absolutely make the champion. Passives like Anivia's, Karthuses, Brand's, Katarina's, Ryze's- they add so much visceral coolness to the champions, and Syndra completely misses out on this. Even less unique passives, such as Cassiopeia's, Orriana's, Annies, at least have a noticeable and playstyle defining effects. Syndra's passive may as well be a blank white icon for the amount it does for her. In fact, it already is a blank white icon until you reach level 9. The fact that the weakest passive in the game doesn't even become 1/3rd (who am I kidding, the Q bonus is about 3/4ths of what this passive does) online until 9 is excruciating.

Riot does a really good job with design typically (I love orriana so much, and a lot of Syndra too) but this passive is just such a wild departure from the standard I am used to that it is actually outrageous.
meddler PLEEEEEEASE


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Hashmäl

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Hey folks,

Just wanted to let you know about some useability/quality of life changes we're currently testing for Syndra and also gather some feedback to see if there's anything else we might have missed that would it would be appropriate to bundle with them. We didn't get Syndra's state quite right on launch, both in terms of simple power and in terms of spell timings, which in retrospect left her abilities both harder to use/more delayed than was appropriate and light on the actual pay off when executed correctly. In the last balance patch we buffed the damage, range and/or mana cost on her skills so now we're looking at tweaking the performance on her abilities themselves (this sort of stuff takes longer to do, hence the changes being split into two patches).

The key changes we're currently testing are:

1. Making her Force of Will more responsive by increasing the speed at which Syndra pulls Dark Spheres/Minions to her to throw and by removing the spell slot cooldown imposed during the grab (instead replacing it with a check that allows the throw to occur as soon as the Sphere/Minion's been pulled to her though not before).

2. Improving the timing on the Sphere hit detection from Scatter the Weak to allow more natural Q followed immediately by E plays. This can currently be done but can be a bit unreliable at moderate Q ranges from Syndra where intuitively you'd expect the combo to work.

3. Fixing the cooldown check on the ultimate so that it doesn't go on cooldown without casting, whether because the target died mid animation or because spellshields are being checked for at start of cast, not at point of missile impact.

4. We're testing a small range increase on her ultimate. This is something we're really cautious about, given the ult's damage can be very high
and higher ranges tested during development were extremely powerful. Given other aspects of her kit were somewhat different then however there's value in rechecking a longer range again to see if the previous problems observed still hold true or not.

In addition we've also got a number of bug fixes in the works that should also improve Syndra's play experience, in particular a case where enemies hit by both Scatter the Weak and a knocked back Dark Sphere sometimes only getting knocked back, rather than knocked back and stunned as intended.

As usual since these are changes in testing they're not set in stone and release timing's not confirmed yet, though we should be talking sooner rather than later.
Will these buffs be in the next patch?


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MrKrota

Junior Member

10-15-2012

Im really happy to see this, i really like her but . . . i really dont like the way she stays defenceless after using her combo(if u don't have 40% CD) when u are being ganked by 2 or more guys, i know she can toss them away a bit or stun them, but i really think her CD are just a lil high on those situations.

Also the lore says that she has power, a LOT of power, so, why not to give her something that can show it like a reworked ult(if you find stuck by the range and the only 1 champ target) like a (dream) GIANT AOE NICE DMG sphere that can be toss like the little ones with W and E also if it's tossed with let it roll like Indiana Jones one(/dream)

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...16/Boulder.jpg

and pls, upgrade that shame passive TuT

You're great guys, keep working, i know u can fix her and put the champ designers name so high, even more than now


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Razy6trix

Member

10-16-2012

Meddler, or any rioter.

All she needs is an ult increase of 100 range.

You can reduce the ap ratio on Q back to 0.5 to compensate.

Don't dumb down the mechanics please...


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Grann Brigitte

Senior Member

10-16-2012

There will be no rest for this thread until justice is served!

Syndra is too cool to not be DISCUSSED ALWAYS.


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Soiyeruda

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grann Brigitte View Post
I realize that this thread is about discussing the current proposed changes to Syndra, but it would have been nice if Meddler would at least address my issue with her passive (posted on page 9), which I feel is something which absolutely has to be changed for Syndra to ever be anything but bad Orriana.

I just don't understand how you can even be looking at QOL and usability changes when a cornerstone of her design and flavor is pretty much just a blank space. The champion is incomplete: finish the concept and then polish it.

Look at other AP carry passives; they absolutely make the champion. Passives like Anivia's, Karthuses, Brand's, Katarina's, Ryze's- they add so much visceral coolness to the champions, and Syndra completely misses out on this. Even less unique passives, such as Cassiopeia's, Orriana's, Annies, at least have a noticeable and playstyle defining effects. Syndra's passive may as well be a blank white icon for the amount it does for her. In fact, it already is a blank white icon until you reach level 9. The fact that the weakest passive in the game doesn't even become 1/3rd (who am I kidding, the Q bonus is about 3/4ths of what this passive does) online until 9 is excruciating.

Riot does a really good job with design typically (I love orriana so much, and a lot of Syndra too) but this passive is just such a wild departure from the standard I am used to that it is actually outrageous.
I agree with this given that her passive doesn't usually activate until Levels 9, 13, and 18. This is why I was a bit concerned when I heard you've removed some effects off her passive, such as giving Force of Will a knock up on max rank, because at the moment, her passive may as well just be the damage bonus Dark Sphere is given. The small increase in damage made the damage increase good but her other abilities receive very unnoticeable effects, especially on whichever ability she saves to max last.

In game, the passive isn't necessarily conveyed well since only Scatter the Weak gets a noticeable graphical change.

An increase on her ultimate range should counteract the fact that she has a pretty bad passive, as her skills are already powerful enough, just that she suffers from clunkiness and an ultimate range that does not mesh well with the rest of her mid range kit. I'd also either shave off 1-3 seconds on Scatter the Weak's cooldown, or give it an increase AP ratio because at the moment, I feel very punished for missing this ability, which has poor damage only slightly made up for with its decent cc.

I appreciate the work you're putting into making her a more viable option. I really enjoy Syndra's playstyle but gave up trying to play around her clunky mechanics.


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milesthefox

Junior Member

10-16-2012

I feel as though the e stun is still a bit unreliable. I realize that this is being worked on, but more than just making the stun notice targets more perhaps an entire change of the skill might be in order.

Diana's move "moonfall" has a cool look and effect. like the moons gravity. Why not put this idea into syndra. Instead of moving people the idea of all of her orbs coming to her location would not only look cool, but if then the surrounding orbs were pushed forward in a line skillshot it would make the move much more reliable while still maintaining the idea and skill of the champion.

This is simply one idea of many and I understand that such a change would take a large amount of time to orchestrate (perhaps to the point of making it nonviable).


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-17-2012
5 of 23 Riot Posts

Quick update on where we're up to. We've tested a bunch of changes internally and they'll be available on the PBE once that's up. Key changes below, would love to hear feedback from anyone that gets a chance to test them on the PBE.

Force of Will:
- Grab time reduced to 0.25s from 0.33s (0.25s is our standard cast time on most spells)
- Now grabs nearest Dark Sphere in range if a valid target is not directly clicked on
- Now executes throw commands given during the grab time immediately once the grab's over, rather than blocking throw commands until the grab's finished
- Minions/Dark Spheres getting pulled around will no longer get stuck on terrain

Scatter the Weak:
- Dark Spheres that have just about finished casting when the wave hits will now be knocked back when they arrive
- Enemies hit by both the wave and a Dark Sphere will now be stunned and knocked back, whereas previously they'd sometimes only get knocked back

Unleashed Power:
- Now checks for spell shields on a sphere by sphere basis, not at start of cast for the whole cast
- Doesn't go on CD if target dies during the cast animation
- Now pulls in Dark Spheres that had been cast but not yet arrived when the ult cast was started

We also spent a lot of time talking the range on her ultimate but elected not to increase it, at least not until we've got a clear understanding of what sort of impact these changes do or don't have on Syndra's performance. If after these changes Syndra's still underperforming it's one of the first things we'll look at again (though that's no guarantee we'll necessarily opt to increase it of course, other buffs might be more appropriate). The passive's the other thing I'd like to look at as well at some point, again though exactly what will be somewhat dependent on how her state changes.


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Kirballs1

Senior Member

10-17-2012

Can't wait!


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-17-2012
6 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebrante View Post
Meddler, i know that this is a syndra's tread but you have some plans for varus on future?
I feel his balance is in a pretty good spot at the moment, as do the Live team last I checked, so nothing major on my part at least. Interested in some minor tweaks at some point potentially, I'd like to hold off on that though until the Season 3 item changes come out though, there's some really interesting stuff in there that if it tests well has the potential to shake his builds and a play up a little (in a good way). Will post a bit more on Varus in general sometime this week in one or two of the Varus threads that are around that I haven't had time to respond to properly yet.