Syndra Quality of Life/Useability changes

First Riot Post
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Shiny Namikarp

Senior Member

10-12-2012

What about a small damage or slow increase when you throw large minions? (Such as buffs, tank minions, or super minions)? Something funny I noticed about playing Syndra is that if I lifted, lets say a tank minion, the opponent reacts much more cautiously as if it were more dangerous despite having no actual bonuses. So what if, like chucking the buff minions at players, throwing larger minions offer a tiny boost in damage or maybe a small increase to the slow ammount? Something to ad flavor more then impact her strategy too harshly, like with the buff throwing.


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iSpiderMan

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Senior Member

10-12-2012

Thanks, I had just got her a noticed a few of this stuff too. Was kinda disappointed when a few of my Combos weren't as smooth as I would have thought. Great to know your working on it. Love her Justicar skin and can't wait to play her more once these fixes are all in place. Thanks!


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Luninareph

Senior Member

10-13-2012

Syndra is pretty much my favorite champion since Lulu.

I love the way she looks, acts, and feels. Throwing minions and spheres is incredibly satisfying. Lining up that perfect pool shot with E is incredibly satisfying. She makes me laugh maniacally while I'm playing because her skills just feel so good and right and fun to me.

If I was going to criticize one thing about her, personally, it would be her passive. To me, her passive is entirely nondescript. Granted, a passive ought to be something working in the background to secure your victory, but that doesn't mean it should be something completely unnoticeable. When I get a skill to level 5, I never feel a sense of fulfillment or glee that my skill just became stronger. I barely even notice the difference, changed graphics and all. I never find myself changing my skill order because I look at the enemy team and think, "Y'know, this game I really need E's wider range." It's particularly unfortunate because, not only is it an underwhelming passive, it's a passive that she doesn't even get any benefit from until level 9, at the earliest.

I recognize that this thread's emphasis is on tweaks, not overhauls, so let me say: I like Syndra's passive's concept and I don't really want it overhauled. I'd just like to see it made more a part of Syndra's gameplay. Perhaps number tweaks would help, or perhaps changing the effects a bit. I'm not entirely sure what I would do with Syndra's passive if I had free rein--but I do know that's a place I'd look at if I were in charge of giving her a bit of a buff, because as it is now, I think it is neither useful nor fun for the Syndra player.


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Lebrante

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Senior Member

10-13-2012

Meddler, i know that this is a syndra's tread but you have some plans for varus on future?


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Feladorzor

Senior Member

10-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
It's certainly possible that Syndra's mana costs are still a bit high and that's something I'm interested in assessing after this set of changes. She is intended to be more mana restricted than some of our other recent AP champs however, and consequently be rewarded for itemizing for mana in the same way that champs like Anivia are.

Regarding bonus damage when manipulating Dark Spheres there are a few reasons this was avoided. The first is to avoid a situation where not using a Dark Sphere is always the wrong play. At the moment there are a number of situations where throwing a minion or going for the knockback without stun are the better choice. If Dark Sphere's granted noticeable bonus damage however we'd have to cut the spell's base damage significantly to account for that, which results in a spell that feels pretty poor when not combo'd (a forced combo effectively). This is the same reason that Dark Spheres don't have an AOE damage aura, -MR aura or anything similar while present on the ground. We tested those sorts of effects and the benefit was extremely hard to notice/feel, while the base damage of Dark Sphere itself had to be a lot lower to compensate for that invisible power.
So you want to make a combo-champ, but you don't want to give her any repercussions for not combining skills? Thats the entire idea of a combo champ, if you fail to get the combination you will be punished for it, but if you succeed you are rewarded with high damage or good cc.

Again I will reference Anivia. Her Flash Frost does half the damage it would if you fail to land either its moving damage or its exploding damage, get the both together and you get alot of damage. Her E is almost completely useless without the enemy being Chilled from either Q or R and the the punishment is entirely noticable to the player. Any Anivia player knows that the only situation you should use E against a non-chilled target is if they have bare minimum health left. Other than that, not using Q or R before E will ALWAYS be the wrong play.

I am disappointed you did not respond with any thoughts on my thread as I think the very design flaws with Syndra is important to acknowledge if you plan on fixing her. You say there are currently scenarios where using E or W without an orb is optimal to the circumstances, specifically for damage, but please explain to me as a mage, why is Syndra using E on its own to do damage? Syndra is very squishy, she requires proper positioning to not get melted, so I don't see how people are using E without the orbs as a source of damage without first placing themselves in compromising positions.

Currently Syndra has for 4 separate skills, each of them do something, each of them are unique. The problem is that none of them work well together because the skills only have a minor interaction with eachother tied together entirely by the one skill, Dark Sphere, her main source of damage. Her W, E and R are almost entirely dependent on Q already, and yet there are no true rewards that come from combining those skills, nor can the skills truly be combined without the presence of her Q.

Lets look at other combination champs;

Anivia - 2 skills apply one Debuff. 3rd Skill on low cooldown can be combined with either of the two for High burst damage.

Brand - 4 skills apply one debuff. All 4 skills provide a different benefit. All 4 skills can be combined with eachother.

Cassiopeia - 2 skills apply one Debuff. 3rd skill on low cooldown can be combined with either skill (can also be combined with Teemo & Singed poison) for high damage output + cooldown reset.

Unfortunately there are very few of these champions available now. Even Zyra doesn't fit into this category as her plants are a mediocre part of her kit and almost unecessary with the amount of damage/cc she has with base skills alone. I was hoping that Syndra was going to be the next champion that had more depth than just skill order, but I may have gotten my hopes up.

Even after reading everything that I've written here it's now come to my attention that my suggestion wouldn't even be close to what I want. In order to make Syndra a true combo champion her Q's would need to add a debuff to the enemies and when they are hit by any of her other skills they take bonus magic damage and the debuff is removed. This could in fact be something all of her skills can apply. When the enemy is hit by or even walks on an orb, they get the debuff applied to them.

This will add a psychological level of play that all us Syndra fans were hoping for but were let down by.


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Hyper Atomic

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Junior Member

10-13-2012

Thanks Meddler. I like the QoL improvements so far in mind for Syndra. Though I can't help but have a thought for an improvement. She seems to have difficulty lining up a stun with her orbs without an indicator, having to be in a straight line.

Now I know this is beyond simple number tweaks and probably beyond the scope of these changes, but what if when Syndra is carrying an orb (not a minion) that she currently has grabbed from her W, her E changes from a cone to a line skillshot as she throws the held orb for damage and/or stun.

I think this would give a much better feeling for her during play, while still keeping to her concept.


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FENiXRiZN

Senior Member

10-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper Atomic View Post
Now I know this is beyond simple number tweaks and probably beyond the scope of these changes, but what if when Syndra is carrying an orb (not a minion) that she currently has grabbed from her W, her E changes from a cone to a line skillshot as she throws the held orb for damage and/or stun.
concept.
Wow, I never thought of that. That's actually a pretty neat idea. It would give her a reliable escape. It would also be pretty funny if you could use this with minions; I can imagine throwing a blue golem at somebody at superfast speeds, knocking them unconscious xD. As it is now, trying to stun enemies with scatter the weak is very clunky, difficult to do, impossible in certain situations, and overall not a viable method for escape whatsoever.

I think her W should work differently as well. If it autocasts on a minion/orb/whatever, then it will pick up that particular object, whereas if it is autocast at a location while a viable object is in proximity, it will automatically pick up the closest object and hurl it in the designated location.


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Krimson

Senior Member

10-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
As far as the throw bug goes I think the changes to the second W cast (buffering the command, rather than blocking it) have fixed that. I wasn't able to consistently reproduce that bug at work however before these changes in the first place so if anyone's got steps for reliably reproducing it that'd be really helpful as a double check.
Ahem...?

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2571815
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2614278

I'm guessing if a bug report isn't consecutively bumped its ignored?


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Augustine

Senior Member

10-13-2012

After looking at the mana costs people have posted here I can really see just how bad it is.

Comparison for Q:
Ziggs: 90 mana rank 5 (CD 4 seconds rank 5; only spell in this list with a higher mana cost)
Syndra: 80 mana rank 5 (CD 4 seconds)
*Galio: 80 mana rank 5 (CD 7 seconds; twice as much as Syndra's orbs but with the same mana cost)
Cassiopeia: 75 mana rank 5 (CD 3 seconds) SPECIAL NOTE: Cassiopeia's passive reduces mana costs by 10% per stack.
*Diana: 55 mana flat (CD 6 seconds rank 5; has a lower mana cost despite the higher cool down than Syndra Q)
Orianna: 50 mana flat (CD 3 seconds rank 5)

*Orianna, Ziggs, and Cassio were used as comparisons of similar spells, whereas Galio and Diana's Q were added as special circumstances (higher CD but same or lower mana cost)

Would it really add too much to Syndra's power if her Q's had a lower mana cost and possibly an extra function ?
I only mention adding an extra passive for Q because Syndra doesn't have a passive pre level 9.
Dark sphere's could do something extra like giving Syndra more armor and MR per ball out, reducing mana costs for every ball that hits a champion (similar to Cassio but only if it hits champions), reducing the cooldown of Q everytime it hits a champion, or increasing Syndra's movespeed per ball out. These are obviously just ideas on the fly, but they're good suggestions for offsetting the cons of having any balls out frequently with the mana cost they have now.


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Zastie

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Senior Member

10-13-2012

Great, can we move onto Karma noooow?