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Item Concept Trash Bin

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axesandspears

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Yay, shorter and easier to read than my old version of it. Nice work!


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Kagami

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
4. More of an item stat that would become overpowered in high values
-GP10 (particularly boots, ty Nestrinast)
-Spell Vamp
-Crit Damage
-[reserved]


Needs to add Arp and Mrp/Reduction (aka Brutalize and Haunting Guise Upgrades with absurd amounts of them on it).


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

10-17-2012

Quote:
Kagami:
Needs to add Arp and Mrp/Reduction (aka Brutalize and Haunting Guise Upgrades with absurd amounts of them on it).

Agreed and added; while I'd have nothing against updating these items (Brutalizer/Youmuu's kinda need reworking or buffs to be viable, and Guise is okay but kind of situational), adding new ones would start messing with balance.


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The Nig We Need

Senior Member

10-17-2012

I like the overall concept of the trash bin (because seriously, some of the things i see here just make me cry) but i don't think you should instantly be shooting down new ideas because they utilize something strong. For example, if someone made a spell vamp item but it was made for tank's who used aoe's when initiating. What i mean is, like an item with 10% spell vamp that would help a tank sustain. ie. Amumu flash initiating with his ult , he could gain some lost life back from his ult and sustain longer in a teamfight. Basically, what im saying is, dont shoot down ideas that utilize something like this before reading the whole post, or you might be putting something actually promising to waste.


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NineballCirno

Senior Member

10-18-2012

I like this thread, and believe that this should be stickied. On another note, active stealth on an item should be added to "Imbalanced concepts outside of individual champion balance".


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

10-18-2012

Quote:
Benjamander:
I like the overall concept of the trash bin (because seriously, some of the things i see here just make me cry) but i don't think you should instantly be shooting down new ideas because they utilize something strong. For example, if someone made a spell vamp item but it was made for tank's who used aoe's when initiating. What i mean is, like an item with 10% spell vamp that would help a tank sustain. ie. Amumu flash initiating with his ult , he could gain some lost life back from his ult and sustain longer in a teamfight. Basically, what im saying is, dont shoot down ideas that utilize something like this before reading the whole post, or you might be putting something actually promising to waste.

The point of the thread is to have a large, general "please do not post this" list, and then if you feel like I'm being unfair, you can debate and show me your idea, and then I can either explain what you're overlooking, or I can relent if what you present is legitimately balanced, necessary and a good idea.

For example, with your suggested item; First, what would you suggest as the item build for this thing? What combination of Armor, MR, HP, and/or offensive stats? The numbers can be tweaked; the point is that I need to know what item stats I'm working with. Second, after I know exactly what you're building this item out of, I ask you to ask yourself the following question: what is preventing any non-tank from buying this item? If your goal is a tank item, it needs to be designed so either non-tanks will not want it, or it will not be imbalanced on non-tanks; however, since the concept you are suggesting is Spell Vamp+Defense, it's pretty much impossible for this to be balanced on all champions.

You're free to lay down your ideas and then defend them; just be prepared to actually defend them, because I will be as detailed and critical as I can be while explaining what is wrong with the concept. I merely wrote this thread because I'm tired of re-re-re-re-re-re-re-rewriting my responses.
Quote:
NineballCirno:
I like this thread, and believe that this should be stickied. On another note, active stealth on an item should be added to "Imbalanced concepts outside of individual champion balance".

Thank you for that, added.


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The Nig We Need

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
Exdeadman:
The point of the thread is to have a large, general "please do not post this" list, and then if you feel like I'm being unfair, you can debate and show me your idea, and then I can either explain what you're overlooking, or I can relent if what you present is legitimately balanced, necessary and a good idea.

For example, with your suggested item; First, what would you suggest as the item build for this thing? What combination of Armor, MR, HP, and/or offensive stats? The numbers can be tweaked; the point is that I need to know what item stats I'm working with. Second, after I know exactly what you're building this item out of, I ask you to ask yourself the following question: what is preventing any non-tank from buying this item? If your goal is a tank item, it needs to be designed so either non-tanks will not want it, or it will not be imbalanced on non-tanks; however, since the concept you are suggesting is Spell Vamp+Defense, it's pretty much impossible for this to be balanced on all champions.


You're free to lay down your ideas and then defend them; just be prepared to actually defend them, because I will be as detailed and critical as I can be while explaining what is wrong with the concept. I merely wrote this thread because I'm tired of re-re-re-re-re-re-re-rewriting my responses.

Thank you for that, added.


No, i dont actually want that item, it was an example. Also, something to add to trash list. You said trash Doran items building into other items, thank you for that. But i saw a post on page 2 about early game items that build into Dorans items... could you possibly add that to trash list. Another thing, a guy made an item suggestion that healed towers, inhibs, nexus, and other structures. I think you might want to consider trashing that as well


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

10-18-2012

Quote:
Benjamander:
No, i dont actually want that item, it was an example. Also, something to add to trash list.

That's why I simply have Spell Vamp listed by itself; I have not seen a balanced suggestion to date for new Spell Vamp, and most of that is because it's conceptually balanced in low amounts.
Quote:
Benjamander:
You said trash Doran items building into other items, thank you for that. But i saw a post on page 2 about early game items that build into Dorans items... could you possibly add that to trash list.

Well, I'll consider it...but really, the only items cheaper than Doran's are Long Sword, Amp Tome, Regrowth Pendant, Meki Pendant, Cloth Armor, Null-Magic Mantle, Rejuv Bead, Faerie Charm and potions; the only one that you can afford to buy 2 items for less than 475 gold is 2 Faerie Charms, and those already build into Mana Manipulator, so I'm not too worried about it. The option doesn't exist in the first place.

So that means either they'd have to suggest new building block items (which I DO need to add to this list, thank you for reminding me), or they'd have to suggest buying one of the others and then "upgrading" it into Doran's items, except only Rejuv and Faerie wouldn't be losing stats in that upgrade.
Quote:
Benjamander:
Another thing, a guy made an item suggestion that healed towers, inhibs, nexus, and other structures. I think you might want to consider trashing that as well

I did mention items that affect towers, #6.


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Muspelheim SN

Member

10-19-2012

Question about point #4, specifically about spell vamp. If spell vamp in large amounts is troublesome (which I don't doubt) why can't spell vamp from items be made globally unique, like tenacity or them MS from boots? Spell vamp from within a champion's kits, runes, and masteries would still stack with a single spell vamp item, as to not make it impossible for Morgana, Ahri, and Akali from getting spell vamp from outside their passives.

Would there be any bad side effects of this? I can't think of anyone who actually builds multiple spellvamp items right now anyway and it would allow for future addition of spellvamp items without breaking several champions.


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

10-20-2012

Quote:
Muspelheim SN:
Question about point #4, specifically about spell vamp. If spell vamp in large amounts is troublesome (which I don't doubt) why can't spell vamp from items be made globally unique, like tenacity or them MS from boots? Spell vamp from within a champion's kits, runes, and masteries would still stack with a single spell vamp item, as to not make it impossible for Morgana, Ahri, and Akali from getting spell vamp from outside their passives.

Would there be any bad side effects of this? I can't think of anyone who actually builds multiple spellvamp items right now anyway and it would allow for future addition of spellvamp items without breaking several champions.

That is a very good point, one that a few others have made in Item Discussion and one that I agree with. Spell Vamp stacking to large values is problematic; so why does it stack across items?

Making it a universally unique item passive would free up some new build options, while also allowing buffs/tweaks to the current spell vamp items if needed.