Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Lich Bane on Singed?

12
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

mambawarrior

Member

10-08-2012

You should not build lich bane on him.
Ever.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ACGIFT

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
TwistWrist:
Since when is 12% considered even "relatively" popular? Relative to what? Archangel staff?

It's the sixth-most popular complete item, after Rabadon's, Athene's, Void Staff, Deathfire and RoA. So while that'd mean it would NOT be found in a majority of end-game Lux builds, One could safely bet that it wouldn't be a rarity, either.

And likewise, on the inverse measurement, I DID say that 10% of all Lich Banes are built on Lux: given that there's some 50 or so champions that have a primary AP build, that'd imply that the AVERAGE rate is only 2%. I would say that both of the above qualify it as "popular."

Quote:
TwistWrist:
Plus, ranked has a wide range of skill levels.. and the vast majority of those skill levels don't build optimally anyway. To use rank builds has a measure of what is good is faulty.

Sadly, LoLking doesn't let me sort items based on BOTH champions and skill level, but looking at what sorting CAN be done... Item builds hardly change between skill levels; practically everyone builds and keeps a Heart of Gold, and the most popular items are more or less the same: Triforce, Bloodthirster, Aegis, Rabadon's, Shurelya's, Guardian Angel, etc.

You said yourself later in the post that it doesn't really change much dependent on what skill level subset you select, which implies that there isn't much effect on how skill impacts the use of various items. (which means that to say "most don't build optimally" would mean "even platinum players don't build optimally&quot I've actually done a math calculation, and the only trend is that amongst Platinum ranked matches, on average most items get build 2.5 times as often, which I believe simply reflects two things:

  • Platinum players are far better at farming than bronze ones, and hence amass gold a lot faster.
  • Platinum-ranked matches are more likely to go on farther, due to fewer deaths which mean decisive teamfights that quickly end an otherwise-close-to-even match occur with much less frequency.

Overall, I'd say that this indicates that, win or lose, the average platinum ranked match sees a LOT more gold earned per-match than lower-grade ranked. As far as win rates with items go, there is very, very little difference; almost every single "completed" item has at most around 2% (Relative, which means on average 1% absolute) difference in win rates, with the only exception being an 8.7% (relative; +4.56% absolute) increase in win rate for Wriggle's Lantern.

Quote:
TwistWrist:
It is very easy to bring up numbers to support a point. Doesn't mean the point is actually true.

However, it makes it far less likely to be wrong than a point that has no data to support it.

Quote:
TwistWrist:
I wouldn't say Lich Bane is straight terrible. At the same time, it isn't exactly a core item either. At best, it is a playstyle choice. I still value Grail way more than Lich Bane due to Lux having useful abilities but long cooldowns.

Though having two CC's doesn't really keep her safe to autoattack. The snare isn't going to stop a whole team, plus you'll probably use it to set up for your ultimate to begin with. Slows really aren't a big deal when there are so many gapclosers with longer range than her autoattacks. Lux will not be able to keep herself safe by herself and makes Lich Bane rather team dependent.

I don't think that LB on Lux is a core item either, unlike, say, for Twisted Fate, (where it's easy to see how popular it is given his W eliminates any required effort) however I do consider it a major item.

Of course, there's always going to be drawbacks with just about any tactic that involves attacking: you're going to be in range of SOMEONE'S counter-attack. That's not a solid reason to avoid a viable optional tactic. After all, even though her ult's cooldown is comparatively brief, her CCs have far less cooldown, and, of course, her passive is refreshed by her ult as well, meaning that to fully maximize her passive, AAs must be part of her combo.

And naturally, you can't always choose to attack your enemy at 1000+ units away, so while being within AA range may leave you more vulnerable, when you're engaging for a combo, you generally don't always have a choice on the range, especially if you're on the defending side. And it makes sense, too: an attack from 1000+ units away isn't called an engagement, it's called a long-range poke, and to the best of my knowledge no one uses AAs for poking.

Quote:
TwistWrist:
Plus, there is still the issue of whether the popularity is based solely on ranked or does it factor in normal as well. The popularity chart doesn't change regardless of what subset you selected.

Unfortunately, an exact answer cannot be given, since LoLking does not have stats tracked for normal matches, only ranked. However, I would feel that the trends shown in the ranked matches would be applicable to normal matches, and that they would be, at most, not far from bronze-level ranked matches; either very close, or perhaps basically simply continue the trend seen as you count down to lower ranks from the higher ones.

It's an assumption, which I will freely admit has the possibility of being wrong, but in absence of any actual evidence to its contrary, will maintain is liable to be a pretty safe bet.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TwistWrist

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
ACGIFT:
It's the sixth-most popular complete item, after Rabadon's, Athene's, Void Staff, Deathfire and RoA. So while that'd mean it would NOT be found in a majority of end-game Lux builds, One could safely bet that it wouldn't be a rarity, either.

And likewise, on the inverse measurement, I DID say that 10% of all Lich Banes are built on Lux: given that there's some 50 or so champions that have a primary AP build, that'd imply that the AVERAGE rate is only 2%. I would say that both of the above qualify it as "popular."


Saying something isn't rare is still not the same thing as popular though. There is wide number of descriptions between the two And, no, there aren't 50 champs that are primarily AP.

And yes, I saw that you wrote 10%. But why would I care when 12% is already a poor measure of popularity? A niche item being more popular on Lux than other AP Carries doesn't actually make the item popular.

Hell, if it is the sixth most popular complete item, then it clearly is not a core item. It is an item that some people will build but most don't find it required. You still need a slot for boots. Being the sixth most popular item doesn't really mean much.

Quote:

Sadly, LoLking doesn't let me sort items based on BOTH champions and skill level, but looking at what sorting CAN be done... Item builds hardly change between skill levels; practically everyone builds and keeps a Heart of Gold, and the most popular items are more or less the same: Triforce, Bloodthirster, Aegis, Rabadon's, Shurelya's, Guardian Angel, etc.


Completely false. Builds change wildly over different skill levels.

Quote:

You said yourself later in the post that it doesn't really change much dependent on what skill level subset you select, which implies that there isn't much effect on how skill impacts the use of various items. (which means that to say "most don't build optimally" would mean "even platinum players don't build optimally&quot


No, that's completely wrong.

The chart numbers literally don't change because it isn't filtered by the skill level subset. Have you actually looked at the numbers when you click between the options? It currently says 159 for Lich Bane and Lux regardless of what you select under the other tab.

Quote:

However, it makes it far less likely to be wrong than a point that has no data to support it.


Oh, it is far less likely to be wrong? Besides all the logical fallacies that you just assumed, merely looking at Lich Bane from normal to bronze to silver to gold to platinum, there is a consistent drop in popularity.

Are you still going to with your conclusion that item builds are the same at all levels of play?

Plus, the idea that the win percentage for an item being consistent means the item is being built the same amount is completely wrong merely by looking up at the popularity chart.

And your "analysis" is completely irrelevant speculation that has absolutely no connection between your evidence and your conclusion. No duh platinum players are richer per game. But your conclusion that item win rate determines item builds is completely random.

Quote:

I don't think that LB on Lux is a core item either, unlike, say, for Twisted Fate, (where it's easy to see how popular it is given his W eliminates any required effort) however I do consider it a major item.


That is nonsensical wordplay. It isn't a core item but it is a major item?

It is the sixth most popular item not including boots that everyone has to buy.

Quote:
Of course, there's always going to be drawbacks with just about any tactic that involves attacking: you're going to be in range of SOMEONE'S counter-attack. That's not a solid reason to avoid a viable optional tactic. After all, even though her ult's cooldown is comparatively brief, her CCs have far less cooldown, and, of course, her passive is refreshed by her ult as well, meaning that to fully maximize her passive, AAs must be part of her combo.


Do you even play Lux?

Because you are totally make my point for me. Being a mage with long range means it is totally a viable reason to avoid getting into autoattack range especially if it means you'll be forced into danger. Plenty of mages try to do that. Hell, plenty of those mages also have passives that encourages autoattacks.

Plus, your original statement that having two CC will keep her safe to autoattack is completely wrong. She isn't running in to autoattack when she has her CC up. She's running in to autoattack after she uses her CC.

Quote:
And naturally, you can't always choose to attack your enemy at 1000+ units away, so while being within AA range may leave you more vulnerable, when you're engaging for a combo, you generally don't always have a choice on the range, especially if you're on the defending side. And it makes sense, too: an attack from 1000+ units away isn't called an engagement, it's called a long-range poke, and to the best of my knowledge no one uses AAs for poking.


That paragraph is all nonsense. You literally have a choice on the range when defending as Lux because you have 1000+ range. You can stay in the back and use your spells from there if you choose to. And the idea that a mage casting spells from 1000+ units away isn't engaging is complete nonsense. That's literally what Xerath and Ziggs do.

Quote:
Unfortunately, an exact answer cannot be given, since LoLking does not have stats tracked for normal matches, only ranked. However, I would feel that the trends shown in the ranked matches would be applicable to normal matches, and that they would be, at most, not far from bronze-level ranked matches


What are you talking about. There is a button for normal stats right on the page.

Plus, bronze ranked easily includes the land of terrible builds.

Quote:
It's an assumption, which I will freely admit has the possibility of being wrong, but in absence of any actual evidence to its contrary, will maintain is liable to be a pretty safe bet.


You have absolutely no solid evidence. Every piece of evidence that you've put forth is proven wrong by LoLKing or is a complete mess of inaccurate conclusions and reasoning.

And you've still haven't dealt with the elephant in the room which is: does popularity guarantee effectiveness?

It doesn't.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

M0rias

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Getting sheen is decent on him if you want to trade harder. It may be true that singed doesn't have many ways to trigger the passive but singed can keep someone tied up for 10-15 second during an average trade between flip and puddle. This gives you a lot of time for you cd's to come back up. I don't know if I would go all the way with lichbane though. You won't be auto attacking much during the late game. You'll mostly want to replace the sheen with items like force of nature or rylais that will allow you to give the enemy team highfives more often.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Burbinator

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Quote:
M0rias:
Getting sheen is decent on him if you want to trade harder. It may be true that singed doesn't have many ways to trigger the passive but singed can keep someone tied up for 10-15 second during an average trade between flip and puddle. This gives you a lot of time for you cd's to come back up. I don't know if I would go all the way with lichbane though. You won't be auto attacking much during the late game. You'll mostly want to replace the sheen with items like force of nature or rylais that will allow you to give the enemy team highfives more often.


If you're fighting or "tying someone up" for 10-15 seconds, then if you had simply bought ap you would do a lot more damage from straight AP. Sheen is bad idk why you're trying to justify it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fs Son0fSilas

Senior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
M0rias:
Getting sheen is decent on him if you want to trade harder. It may be true that singed doesn't have many ways to trigger the passive but singed can keep someone tied up for 10-15 second during an average trade between flip and puddle. This gives you a lot of time for you cd's to come back up. I don't know if I would go all the way with lichbane though. You won't be auto attacking much during the late game. You'll mostly want to replace the sheen with items like force of nature or rylais that will allow you to give the enemy team highfives more often.



The money spent on Sheen could easily be put towards a Catalyst. If you already own a catalyst, you could finish your boots and buy another defensive item, or a Revolver. If you are building for lategame, buying an item that gives you nothing that he needs (that other items won't give him more of; AP/Mana) you are wasting gold. Singed job is to disrupt team fights, tank damage, get chased by idiots, and push push push.

Singed is on of the few champions I'd recommend constant pushing on. Having "Tied someone up for 10-15 seconds" all you've managed to do is land 2 maybe 3 sheen procs on a champion that doesn't even stack AD.

Who buys TF and LB?

AD Casters, AP Auto-Attackers, an on-hit "Hybrid", and MAYBE a bruiser AD/AP

Singed is none of these things.


12