@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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MathMage

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xengre View Post
No idea what part of the world you reside in... but it is not uncommon for a female of age 31 to look like that in the U.S. unless you live in locations that are often run down (stress makes on look as if they aged faster in many cases) or drugs are prominent among women/men in that area.

I do not think you are the OP and have seen you on the forums enough to know you are not... I am not sure where you got this idea from that I thought you were the OP (unless you thought my bottom part of the post was oriented at you? as it was clearly addressed at someone else).

I disagree that they look like porn stars... but I can't honestly argue this point too much because, frankly, I am not familiar with porn stars. I think they generally look like well aged athletic (I mean Miss Fortune is a friggin pirate, argghh matey lol) women who look reasonably realistic... at least based in comparison to women of America.
My point was that a 31-year-old model isn't significantly different from a 25-year-old model where modeling stereotypes are concerned.

I was a little confused about the latter part of your post, yah. Apologies there.

Each of MF's boobs was bigger than her entire waist in her old splash art. In her new art, the dimension from back to chest is about 60% boob. That's not even attractive, it's just disconcerting. It certainly isn't 'reasonably realistic'.

And this is a champion I'm more liable to excuse, because at least her design archetype is fundamentally sexy. Hell, I'm willing to ignore Leona because at least she's fully clothed, even though her metal-dress-and-bra attire is pure costume with no practical use whatever. Fiora's T&A pose? No excuse for that. Akali's random sideboob? No excuse for that. Syndra's belted-on pushup-and-thong getup? No excuse for that. Eve's...everything? No excuse for that.


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Apex Angel

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

It's good to see this thread managed to get back on track. It was getting a little crazy for a while there.

It's a pretty safe bet that everyone wants to see more diversity among all the champions. More monsters, more female champions, and more cultures in the champions. This thread has proven that there is definitely a demand for more female champions of various shapes and sizes. Other threads come up that want more monsters, and some want more ethnicity and culture options. And everyone is right, more choices should never be a bad thing.

I think a common misstep that a lot of people wanting more variety make in their arguments is declaring that their opinions on the matter, in this case, the champions, their skins, and splash arts, as fact. That is an impossibility because everyone's opinion is completely subjective. What one would think is sexually suggestive could be considered off-putting and grotesque to another. As the saying goes, “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.”

As a result of this misstep, the entirety of the anonymity of the internet comes crashing down. The hordes will claim you're wrong, you're opinion is invalid, and finding ways to find fault in ever little detail or piece of evidence you've presented. The truth of it all is that everyone is right and wrong because it's all subjective. For example, the OP views the champions Cassiopeia and Zyra as overly sexual, where as I find them grotesque (scaled skin, serpentine body, tentacles, clawed limbs, multiple ears, don't exactly turn me on). Some people agree with her, some agree with me, and others will disagree with both of us. And that is okay because ultimately how we feel and view these characters is subjective. We just need to be civil and respectful of each others opinions.

If you genuinely want Riot to add more variety in their female and women champions, you need to encourage them, as opposed to condemning them for not having done it yet. With how long a champion takes to be made, it's entirely possible the female champion of your dreams is in the pipeline, but not scheduled for release until next year. I believe when Diana was released, there was a picture floating around for her concept art that was made back in October of last year.

On a lesser note, I think there also exist a couple of additional hurdles for Riot when it comes to catering to some of the desires of the fan base that want a female champion that they wouldn't consider overly sexual or suggestive. In society, men can often be portrayed in various ways and there not be an outcry among the masses, but if a woman was presented in the same manner, there would be riots in the streets (okay, forgive the bad pun).

Take Urgot for example. When he was released, he wasn't very popular. A lot of players were disgusted by his default skin. If I recall correctly, Morello went out there and said that he didn't sell well because he was too gross. Would there of been an outcry if Urgot was actually female? Would womens' groups going out there and claim that it glorifed violence against women? What if a portly woman champion was introduced? No matter what new female champion is made, she is going to be heavily scrutinized by some members of the community. I'm not claiming that they shouldn't try, but they are going to be held to a critically high expectation and will fail in the eyes of some because it's all subjective.

Additionally, what if one tones down the sexuality too much? Is it better to have a champion who is obviously a woman, or one that appears to be androgynous? I know when I was still a newbie, I actually thought Ezreal was a flat chested woman until I actually heard him speak >< .

What would those of you that aren't currently satisfied with the current female roster want in your own champion?

TLDR

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

It's okay to not like things, just don't be a dick about it.

Encourage Riot for more variety, don't condemn them for not having done it yet.


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Xengre

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
I've addressed multiple people who do not share my opinion. The difference is they are respectful and civil. You are hostile and condescending. You don't treat my arguments with respect, you don't even address them properly. You put words in my mouth, and taljk about things that are irrelevant like "Anivia is old." So yes, you are wasting your time.
I have been quite civil and I am not speaking with hostility or condescendingly. At worst I have said you appear to be trolling everyone in this thread and not taking it seriously (as seen in your lack of evidence or logical backing, and personal biased views/comments). If you can show otherwise I shall rectify my manner of speaking and offer apology.

As example of ignored posts that you refuse to discuss and are supposedly hostile and/or condescending...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xengre View Post
Anivia was in no way my only example.
Eve, Irelia, Fiora, Janna, Karma, Leona, Miss Fortune,Morgana, Riven, Sivir, Soraka (was human before), Aristocrat Vayne (not sure about default Vayne) area few that may arguably and very likely be 30+ in age.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xengre View Post
Games certainly do influence society but they are not soley to blame. In fact I move to argue that the majority of blame falls on the females of the world who sexualize themselves to gain attention in the media, in schools, among friends/peers, and even in gaming communities as "gaming girls".

They actually try to intentionally avoid champs such as Gragas because due to their appearance they are not as popular. The primary reason Gragas, in particular, has any popularity is because people like to rebel and play a "fat" character intentionally and he is a powerful champion (in regards to gameplay). Zilean is fine... except that you have Soraka who fits this role just as well! She was once human and is possibly as old as Zilean if not older.
I would appreciate it if you stop being so hostile/insulting (this is not sarcasm btw) and take this topic seriously instead of picking your fights with those that coincide and ignoring others. At current the discussion with you is entirely one sided due to closed mindedness and refusal to properly discuss the topic.


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Drewbert22

Member

10-06-2012

This injustice can not continue!!


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MathMage

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Goldblum View Post
Yeah, it's very sad that the male gender has become so redundant and frowned upon and unnecessary in this society that competitive gaming and gaming in general has become the last place where young men can feel like they're allowed to act like men.

But that's not what you meant. You were using shaming tactics to try and present my argument in an overly simplified way which you implied to be embarrassing. You're a ****ing piece of **** and a ****ing weasel.
No, it's sad that your definition of manliness is exemplified by video game misogyny and general ******tery, rather than by, well, any of the zillion other great things about being a man in modern society.

If you're the representative of what you think is 'manly', I want no part of it.


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Shizuhara

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flana Scarlet View Post
I think the problem is, one or two people doesn't mean jack. There are hundreds of people working at Riot, and way more than just a couple working in art department. Unless Riot as a whole tries to step up their game, it's going to be a long uphill battle that could just result in absolutely nothing.

Don't get me wrong, I love IronStylus and all that he's done/doing for us. But one person isn't enough to change a design style for an entire company.
That's true, and he doesn't claim that he can. At the same time, it's really not likely possible that the overall design style is going to change any time soon.

However, as steps are made in that direction, we may see that female champs can sell without having to bare their bosoms. With that obstacle out of the way, I trust they'll shoot not only for the *** appeal as it's clearly a divisive issue. While it'd be foolish to say that more people care (enough to not buy) than don't, any added revenue is great. It's not like people buy champions solely because they find them sexy, after all.*

*or at least I'd like to think so...MF did see a surge in popularity after getting a new, sexier splash art.


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Nyarii

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogonk View Post
Seriously?

There will likely never be a red post in this thread. And if there is it will be an anodyne statement [...] with absolutely no change in their actual behavior or the content of the game. This is not a conversation they are willing to have, and the extent to which Rioters have participated in mocking and dismissive threads over the past few weeks makes that completely obvious.
^


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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex Angel View Post
It's good to see this thread managed to get back on track. It was getting a little crazy for a while there.

It's a pretty safe bet that everyone wants to see more diversity among all the champions. More monsters, more female champions, and more cultures in the champions. This thread has proven that there is definitely a demand for more female champions of various shapes and sizes. Other threads come up that want more monsters, and some want more ethnicity and culture options. And everyone is right, more choices should never be a bad thing.

I think a common misstep that a lot of people wanting more variety make in their arguments is declaring that their opinions on the matter, in this case, the champions, their skins, and splash arts, as fact. That is an impossibility because everyone's opinion is completely subjective. What one would think is sexually suggestive could be considered off-putting and grotesque to another. As the saying goes, “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.”

As a result of this misstep, the entirety of the anonymity of the internet comes crashing down. The hordes will claim you're wrong, you're opinion is invalid, and finding ways to find fault in ever little detail or piece of evidence you've presented. The truth of it all is that everyone is right and wrong because it's all subjective. For example, the OP views the champions Cassiopeia and Zyra as overly sexual, where as I find them grotesque (scaled skin, serpentine body, tentacles, clawed limbs, multiple ears, don't exactly turn me on). Some people agree with her, some agree with me, and others will disagree with both of us. And that is okay because ultimately how we feel and view these characters is subjective. We just need to be civil and respectful of each others opinions.

If you genuinely want Riot to add more variety in their female and women champions, you need to encourage them, as opposed to condemning them for not having done it yet. With how long a champion takes to be made, it's entirely possible the female champion of your dreams is in the pipeline, but not scheduled for release until next year. I believe when Diana was released, there was a picture floating around for her concept art that was made back in October of last year.

On a lesser note, I think there also exist a couple of additional hurdles for Riot when it comes to catering to some of the desires of the fan base that want a female champion that they wouldn't consider overly sexual or suggestive. In society, men can often be portrayed in various ways and there not be an outcry among the masses, but if a woman was presented in the same manner, there would be riots in the streets (okay, forgive the bad pun).

Take Urgot for example. When he was released, he wasn't very popular. A lot of players were disgusted by his default skin. If I recall correctly, Morello went out there and said that he didn't sell well because he was too gross. Would there of been an outcry if Urgot was actually female? Would womens' groups going out there and claim that it glorifed violence against women? What if a portly woman champion was introduced? No matter what new female champion is made, she is going to be heavily scrutinized by some members of the community. I'm not claiming that they shouldn't try, but they are going to be held to a critically high expectation and will fail in the eyes of some because it's all subjective.

Additionally, what if one tones down the sexuality too much? Is it better to have a champion who is obviously a woman, or one that appears to be androgynous? I know when I was still a newbie, I actually thought Ezreal was a flat chested woman until I actually heard him speak >< .

What would those of you that aren't currently satisfied with the current female roster want in your own champion?

TLDR

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

It's okay to not like things, just don't be a dick about it.

Encourage Riot for more variety, don't condemn them for not having done it yet.
I hope my post didn't come out as condemning, because that was not my intent. I was disappointed in the way this issue had been handled in the past, particularly my brief exchange with Morello, and the two threads that cropped up basically mocking those of us that actually consider this a problem (with Rioters participating).

On the subject of Zyra and Cassiopeia, I actually agree with you on a personal level, but I was trying to be objective. If I removed those champions, I would also have to remove Varus, because he is grotesque in the exact same way, and Varus stands as the only male champion I find to be sexualized, so it's a double-edged sword.

I strongly appreciate your call for a more civil discussion. Mudslinging gets us nowhere.


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Xengre

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
My point was that a 31-year-old model isn't significantly different from a 25-year-old model where modeling stereotypes are concerned.

I was a little confused about the latter part of your post, yah. Apologies there.

Each of MF's boobs was bigger than her entire waist in her old splash art. In her new art, the dimension from back to chest is about 60% boob. That's not even attractive, it's just disconcerting. It certainly isn't 'reasonably realistic'.

And this is a champion I'm more liable to excuse, because at least her design archetype is fundamentally seductive. Hell, I'm willing to ignore Leona because at least she's fully clothed, even though her metal-dress-and-bra attire is pure costume with no practical use whatever. Fiora's T&A pose? No excuse for that. Akali's random sideboob? No excuse for that. Syndra's belted-on pushup-and-thong getup? No excuse for that. Eve's...everything? No excuse for that.
Actually her boobs are not larger then her wasteline, but I can definitely see why you may think that due to a fault on the artist's end (see Tryndamere's anatomy... and others in past topics of these forums). I would also argue that her boobs are realistic but the arc'd position and failure to properly portray her waste on the artist's end make it seem less so. Despite the fact that you and I may not find them attractive it is a well known stereotype that men like large breast and hers are within realistic proportions (for even natural bust).

Fiora.. the French are often stereotyped as being attractive and this is her theme. To take matters further she is an athletic sword practitoner (using a thin rapier style of sword play... which coincides aesthetically with her thin and refined body).

Akali's side boob is a real clothing style and is in fault of females because they wear such clothing designs in the real world. I also do not believe that it is in any way sexist or condescending to women. Do you?

Syndra is a sexy powerful (effectively) mage and is not over the top to be honest. Then again this game is rated for Teen. Neither her nor Akali are really any worse then a women wearing a swim suit (think about it in that reference for a moment).

Eve's theme is vamprism and seductiveness/ultimate predator so it actually is a rather accurate portrayal. I personally think it could have been better done since I feel it is over the top as well... but it is not sexist since it is representing a very accurate theme.

I am curious what you think about these points after seeing it from a different angle. Also be back to check up on thread in a bit.


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mogonk

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
I strongly appreciate your call for a more civil discussion. Mudslinging gets us nowhere.
Civil discussion also gets us nowhere.

Funny how that works.