@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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420BlazeItFÃG

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

I highly doubt there is a majority of females who don't play because of the skins and art, even if they did have more attractive males, do you honestly think that a ton of females would really play? This game is about skill not skins, skins are just cosmetic and not needed, which is why they are bought with real money. Besides for a female to actually have a problem with this shows that they shouldn't even be playing this game and instead watch something with attractive males, like anime or play a different game. Sure, there is a chance more females will play, but to play just to look at the art and skins mean that many of them will be bad at the game,creating a stereotype that females can't play league.


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OmleteDuFromage

Member

10-06-2012

I don't even care about gender in this game. Can you imagine starting this up and playing akali because her skin is hot? It makes no sense. You can barely even see the models. I get skins that look cool not sexy. What skins would women find cool?


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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xengre View Post
It does matter as the topic is sexualization of genders. If he can reasonably look like that and still be young or look younger then he really is while being quite old (or any champion for that matter) then this is relevant and not being sexist. Viktor you have no real point here... and Anivia matters because she is a "diverse" female champion that is known to be female without doubt, not that it matters since there are many other extremely old champions.

It is not appropriate to claim something as being sexist when they can realistically have such an appearance in the real world (in reference to the variance in ages which you so strongly speak of males having but females not possessing that you claim key in their being diverse).
The topic is about the way both genders are represented, and how they have a much more diverse male cast than a female cast. Male characters are allowed to appear older than female champions. Even though Viktor's face is covered up in his default skin, he looks at least middle aged based on his hair. I referenced his prototype skin because that skin represents what he looked like before he went cyborg. Refusing to accept this point doesn't matter because there are plenty of other male champions that look old.

I took Anivia out of the equation because I wanted to focus on the human characters, but adding her to the mix does you no favors, because if you add Anivia, with her comes Chogath, Fiddlesticks, Fizz, Galio, Hecarim, Karthus, KhaZix, KogMaw, Malphite, Maokai, Nocturne, Sion, Skarner, Trundle, Urgot, Yorick, Alistar, Nasus, Rammus, Renekton, Rengar, Twitch, Volibear, Warwick, Wukong, Brand, Dr. Mundo, Jax, Kassadin, Mordekaiser, Nautilus, and Xerath. The monsters are arguably the most diverse champion in the game, and Anivia is THE ONLY FEMALE. It only further demonstrates that the two genders are not treated the same way.


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Xengre

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
The topic is about the way both genders are represented, and how they have a much more diverse male cast than a female cast. Male characters are allowed to appear older than female champions. Even though Viktor's face is covered up in his default skin, he looks at least middle aged based on his hair. I referenced his prototype skin because that skin represents what he looked like before he went cyborg. Refusing to accept this point doesn't matter because there are plenty of other male champions that look old.

I took Anivia out of the equation because I wanted to focus on the human characters, but adding her to the mix does you no favors, because if you add Anivia, with her comes Cho’gath, Fiddlesticks, Fizz, Galio, Hecarim, Karthus, Kha’Zix, Kog’Maw, Malphite, Maokai, Nocturne, Sion, Skarner, Trundle, Urgot, Yorick, Alistar, Nasus, Rammus, Renekton, Rengar, Twitch, Volibear, Warwick, Wukong, Brand, Dr. Mundo, Jax, Kassadin, Mordekaiser, Nautilus, and Xerath. The monsters are arguably the most diverse champion in the game, and Anivia is THE ONLY FEMALE. It only further demonstrates that the two genders are not treated the same way.
There are already female champs that look old as I already went into detail in a previous post on which you chose to side step entirely... as you clearly do not wish to have a proper discussion on the topic. Viktor is a pointless argument as considering his experiments there could be numerous causes for this.

Cho'gath, Kha'Zix, Kog'Maw, Malphite, Maokai could all very well be neuter and as far as we are concerned likely are. The rest are to be considered as likely male and leads directly into what I have been saying for a while now... simply it is not a lack of diversity in female champions but a lack of pool size. 32 out of 105 champions are definitely female, or 30%.


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ihave2cows

Senior Member

10-06-2012

just gonna say, as what people constantly assume to be a "straight white male gamer", I usually get into a lot of arguments with feminists, but everything thats been said in the OP is true. So I'm sorry that things are the way they are, and I hope that they change.

also, downvoting xengre


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Xengre

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihave2cows View Post
just gonna say, as what people constantly assume to be a "straight white male gamer", I usually get into a lot of arguments with feminists, but everything thats been said in the OP is true. So I'm sorry that things are the way they are, and I hope that they change.

also, downvoting xengre
While you are downvoting me in every post you can find for no appropriate reason be aware I am not going to do the same. I have cast no downvotes in in this thread nor do I intend to. Have fun searching 70 pages.


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IS1a420802574b139f7409f

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
The topic is about the way both genders are represented, and how they have a much more diverse male cast than a female cast. Male characters are allowed to appear older than female champions. Even though Viktor's face is covered up in his default skin, he looks at least middle aged based on his hair. I referenced his prototype skin because that skin represents what he looked like before he went cyborg. Refusing to accept this point doesn't matter because there are plenty of other male champions that look old.

I took Anivia out of the equation because I wanted to focus on the human characters, but adding her to the mix does you no favors, because if you add Anivia, with her comes Chogath, Fiddlesticks, Fizz, Galio, Hecarim, Karthus, KhaZix, KogMaw, Malphite, Maokai, Nocturne, Sion, Skarner, Trundle, Urgot, Yorick, Alistar, Nasus, Rammus, Renekton, Rengar, Twitch, Volibear, Warwick, Wukong, Brand, Dr. Mundo, Jax, Kassadin, Mordekaiser, Nautilus, and Xerath. The monsters are arguably the most diverse champion in the game, and Anivia is THE ONLY FEMALE. It only further demonstrates that the two genders are not treated the same way.
I don't really think that monsters are really that relevant. In what sense is Cho'gath, Kog'Maw, Skarnar, Maokai, Fiddlesticks, or Kha'zix really male monsters vs female monsters? I don't really think they are particularly defined by gender at all. If you go by pro-nouns, well, "he" is the basic pronoun in the english language. I understand if you have concerns with that, but its sort of a different option. I don't think anything about them would be particularly different if they were referred to by "she".

Personally I don't think anything would be improved by changing the pronouns you use for them. Fiddlesticks is literally an animated scarecrow - does it really matter what gender pronoun we use for it?

As for the ones that are more gendered - personally I don't see how they'd be improved by making them female. It would just be weird - your free to your own opinion of course, but I suspect less people (male and female) would really like a female Dr. Mundo. There are cases where it would be more possible - they could add a god from Nasus' and Renekton's pantheon that was female, but likely they'd be similar to Soraka - human? No. Considered sexy by some people? Probably. This is the internet after all.

I dunno - I don't really have an argument beyond that... try to imagine characters like Warwick and Dr. Mundo as female characters. Does that really seem like a good idea to you? If so, I guess we just have different aesthetic sensibilities - where that comes from, I can't really say.

I guess ultimately your point comes down to "why does there have to be a reason above and beyond for a character to be female instead of 50/50?" At least that's what I read from it, and to that, I'd really have to say that's a broader issue than league of legends. When you set out to draw something - take for example a zombie, I'm guessing 95% of artists will draw a male zombie - or at least one they'd refer to be "he" or "it". Repeat for... scarecrow, tree monster, abyss monster, etc. If you told me to draw a monster from the abyss, yeah, I'd probably nominally refer to it as "he" or "it". Generally speaking non-human things are not female unless there is a specific reason.

I don't know if that comes from most concept artist being guys or what, but as from what I understand there are a fair amount of female artists at Riot, I sort of doubt that. I've always correlated to it the same phenomena with pets - people will almost always refer to dogs and cats as he unless they knew specifically one way or the other - particularly with dogs. People don't really think of something as a gendered object unless its a human, and when your not thinking about, its typically "he", just because that IS the gender neutral pronoun in our language (currently).


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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xengre View Post
There are already female champs that look old as I already went into detail in a previous post on which you chose to side step entirely... as you clearly do not wish to have a proper discussion on the topic. Viktor is a pointless argument as considering his experiments there could be numerous causes for this.

Cho'gath, Kha'Zix, Kog'Maw, Malphite, Maokai could all very well be neuter and as far as we are concerned likely are. The rest are to be considered as likely male and leads directly into what I have been saying for a while now... simply it is not a lack of diversity in female champions but a lack of pool size. 32 out of 105 champions are definitely female, or 30%.
Yes, "detail."

Quote:
Eve
Irelia (looks like she is decently aged, but due to her lore may in fact be quite young so difficult to say)
Fiora (looks like she is aging very well and probably in late 20s or early/mid 30s)
Janna
Karma (difficult to say how much time has passed based on her lore but looks well aged)
Leona is likely late 20s or early/mid 30s
Lulu is very old
Lux likely late teens or early 20s (though some of her skins suggest her theme as an even older women)
Miss Fortune could realistically be in her 40s... but it is extremely difficult to pin point her likely age
Morgana
Riven is possibly aged as well (hard to say, but definitely stylized as cool first and sexy second)
Sivir looks 30-40 but can't say for sure
Soraka... uber old
Aristocrat Vayne
That is your definition of detail. The only champions you even claim to look over 30 are Soraka, Miss Fortune, and Sivir, and I disagree on all three counts. You even added Lulu, a yordle, when I was very clear in stating yordles do not count. If you want to talk about yordles, fine. There are 3 female and 8 male. The males are still more diverse.

This topic of apparent age was about the human champions. You keep disregarding the rules of this discussion only when it's convenient to you. The human champions are actually evenly split. There are 28 of both sexes. They don't need to add for female champion, they need to add more female monsters.


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GKET

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-06-2012

This is a ****ING GAME, who in the hell will even care abouts such a nonsens...


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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by herdsheep View Post
I don't really think that monsters are really that relevant. In what sense is Cho'gath, Kog'Maw, Skarnar, Maokai, Fiddlesticks, or Kha'zix really male monsters vs female monsters? I don't really think they are particularly defined by gender at all. If you go by pro-nouns, well, "he" is the basic pronoun in the english language. I understand if you have concerns with that, but its sort of a different option. I don't think anything about them would be particularly different if they were referred to by "she".

Personally I don't think anything would be improved by changing the pronouns you use for them. Fiddlesticks is literally an animated scarecrow - does it really matter what gender pronoun we use for it?

As for the ones that are more gendered - personally I don't see how they'd be improved by making them female. It would just be weird - your free to your own opinion of course, but I suspect less people (male and female) would really like a female Dr. Mundo. There are cases where it would be more possible - they could add a god from Nasus' and Renekton's pantheon that was female, but likely they'd be similar to Soraka - human? No. Considered sexy by some people? Probably. This is the internet after all.

I dunno - I don't really have an argument beyond that... try to imagine characters like Warwick and Dr. Mundo as female characters. Does that really seem like a good idea to you? If so, I guess we just have different aesthetic sensibilities - where that comes from, I can't really say.

I guess ultimately your point comes down to "why does there have to be a reason above and beyond for a character to be female instead of 50/50?" At least that's what I read from it, and to that, I'd really have to say that's a broader issue than league of legends. When you set out to draw something - take for example a zombie, I'm guessing 95% of artists will draw a male zombie - or at least one they'd refer to be "he" or "it". Repeat for... scarecrow, tree monster, abyss monster, etc. If you told me to draw a monster from the abyss, yeah, I'd probably nominally refer to it as "he" or "it". Generally speaking non-human things are not female unless there is a specific reason.

I don't know if that comes from most concept artist being guys or what, but as from what I understand there are a fair amount of female artists at Riot, I sort of doubt that. I've always correlated to it the same phenomena with pets - people will almost always refer to dogs and cats as he unless they knew specifically one way or the other - particularly with dogs. People don't really think of something as a gendered object unless its a human, and when your not thinking about, its typically "he", just because that IS the gender neutral pronoun in our language (currently).
That's why I wanted to focus on the human and human-esque champions. The monsters are a completely different conversation. But this guy insisted Anivia was an example of an aged female champion, despite me stating she was irrelevant.

The point he was responding to was my claim that there are no human females that look much older than 30, while there are plenty of guys middle aged and older.