@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MTaur

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryswar View Post
Cute. You ignore how fervently IronStylus and some others have supported more varied and non-sexist female champs in favor of painting an inaccurate portrayal of red behavior?
-1

The OP didn't ignore that at all. The OP made an exhaustive list containing lots of sexed up fanservice champs/skins who were female, and... Varus. And then the OP included a small list of passingly non-sexualized champs. 33% non-fanservice adult human female vs 97% non-fanservice adult human male. All adult human females are under 35. Read the OP again and just try to deny the trend.

If males were stuck with the same standard, there would be 40 copies of Varus and maybe several Jarvans. Straight male gamers would run away because they'd think the game was trying to turn them ****.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MTaur

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexCor View Post
Players want appealing, thematic champions. Riot delivers. Video games are a marriage of art and business, and the business Riot's engaged in is predominantly with young to middle-aged males. I'm fully aware there ARE female players, but they DO NOT make up the majority, or even a reasonable sampling of Riot's clientele.
This can be rather circular. Of course that's going to be the majority of who's playing if you alienate enough people who aren't looking for Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball.

LoL players aren't a fixed and unchangeable group that can't grow or shrink based on who Riot chooses to reach out to. Decisions about how they mix sexualization in with their character designs, often needlessly.

Would more male gamers would leave (or fail to join) if there were more balance than there would be more female gamers joining/staying than before?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

chumbler

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTaur View Post
-1

The OP didn't ignore that at all. The OP made an exhaustive list containing lots of sexed up fanservice champs/skins who were female, and... Varus. And then the OP included a small list of passingly non-sexualized champs. 33% non-fanservice adult human female vs 97% non-fanservice adult human male. All adult human females are under 35. Read the OP again and just try to deny the trend.

If males were stuck with the same standard, there would be 40 copies of Varus and maybe several Jarvans. Straight male gamers would run away because they'd think the game was trying to turn them ****.
It definitely says something about people's security about their sexuality that they think maybe having a female champion who isn't played up for *** appeal (for example wearing very heavy armor) is just completely unconscionable and denies that those players are men.

Somehow the notion that female champions don't have to be sexy is just a completely radical feminist agenda that threatens to destroy all of society as we know it. If Riot started making female champions who are just cool, without also making them sexy, I'd wager the vast majority of the player base would have no issue at all with it. There's just a very vocal minority of people who are deathly afraid that their only source of boobies will be taken away from them. The amount of people who post on the forums is probably not even one tenth of one percent of the total number of people who play this game. Probably not even one hundredth of a percent.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BelligerentGnu

Senior Member

10-06-2012

The clearest, best written summary on the issue to date.

Mad props, OP, that post took some doing.

Also: Ironstylus, I SUMMON THEE!

Parrots, leona, iron solari, diana, pickle wearing a hat.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SilverHellion

Senior Member

10-06-2012

As a male teenage gamer.... I have to agree with the OP. I hate the selection of body types the females have, and I despise the people that say things like the pentakill olaf are for women. Miss Fortunes 115 pounds with a good 10 of those going to big bags of fat, will only hurt her in a setting like the League, where as Olafs bulging muscles are needed for him to swing an axe. I get fantasy, but I want some realism.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zuthon

Member

10-06-2012

What about lulu!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!


I shall perform a ritual to summon a red to this Post, *Tribal dances around fire* OH MIGHTY GODS WE NEED YOUR ASSISTANCE!!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zetasphere

Senior Member

10-06-2012

I like who obviously downvotes whom in this thread. It's hilarious.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dardstar View Post
Ok so 32 pages latter is probably not the best place for a counter argument, but I enjoy talking on this subject as long as both parties are reasonable and neither just dismisses the others argument.

That out of the way, I have something against your 'ZERO male champions are sexualised' Statement. Sure you go on to say that some of the common examples such as trynd looks like a rhino but you discount a lot of what 'sexualised' actually means.

Lets start of with something that I think you would consider to be a sexualised male: Your typical male model/stripper that appears in any film or tv show that wants to show a male stip club. The problem with this version of sexualised is that it is the male concept of a sexualised female transplanted onto the male figure. Its not a females depiction of what they find sexy. In the same vein a female wearing a bikini and an a male wearing speedos don't really fit into the same category of 'sexy'.

However lets take another icon from tv that I have on good authority is 'sexy': Dean winchester from supernatural. He is a somewhat over-sexualised picture of a male, but doesn't fit into your definition of 'sexualised'. An in game example of this is superm.... er.. I mean Jayce, He has a sterotypical muscle-bound frame, shoulders about a meter apart and is "Armed with wit and charm", no matter how hard I tried I could never match up to Jayce as an image of what a male should look like, the same way a female would have a hard time matching up to what Cait may represent, If anything I think I would have a harder time of it.

So I believe your definition of sexualised is skewed towards females, and some examples of what I would count as male sexualisation would be:
-Darius (age or not he is still in damn good shape)
-Draven (while his direct style, such as his beard leaves something to be desired he isn't 'ugly)
-Ezreal
-Garen
-Gangplank (you really think 30 is to old to be sexy?)
-Jarvin
-Lee Sin
-Olaf
-Pantheon
-TF
-Xin

Now a lot of these people you mentioned and brought up as 'not sexy because of X' but I believe some of your reasoning to be false, your main point was style, for example lee sin is somewhat sexualised but since it fits into the whole monk thing its kind of a pass, by dint of this a lot of females should be given a pass, for example:
- Zyra
She is a plant, frankly if she was naked it would suit her better.

-Nidalee
Same as zyra I think the only reason she wears clothes is cause it would shock people if she didn't, I'm guessing when she was found with the noxian woodcutters she was naked.

-LeBlanc
Her thing is deception, what a better way to deceive someone then hey look at my clones breasts while I stab you in the back

And most of the overly sexualised females wouldn't find the need for armour anyway since they are mages or something of the ilk, hell Fiora is a duellist, while yes she is sexualised, she is wearing more armour then most duellists would wear anyway. And look at brand while sure he is made of charcoal he is wearing pants and nothing else.

While I do disagree with you, I do agree with you on some points as well, for example I think everyone can agree Sejuani needs to rethink her wardrobe.

And finally What your alternative? I don't really want to play bob or Jane with a beer gut from down the street in league of legends, even stereotypical female soldier #5 is kind of boring. And there is only so many fully armoured females you can do before you run out of the archetype: It would be weird playing leona if she was a squishy ranged mage.
First. thank you for being respectful. It's a breath of fresh air to see someone offer a counterargument that isn't condescending and/or flat out aggressive.

I think you misread the line about "ZERO males are sexualized." I stated that that is NOT the argument I wanted to make. My definition of sexualized is a character who is designed with the intent of enticing the player. That's why Fiora is sexualized (she is covered, but her pose is all about showing off her ass), and Tryndamere is not. Tryndamere is shirtless, but he is a berserker. He is enraged, he is not enticing at all. Also, he is grotesquely muscular.

There are plenty of examples of sexualized males in other mediums. I was in Vegas last years, and there were posters for 4 different male revues plastered all over town. Vampire Diaries and True Blood are all about fanservice. I'm not asking for a male in a speedo. I'm asking Riot to respect both genders equally by using the same design philosophy for both of them.

Whether a male is good looking and whether or not he is sexualized are two different things. Darius is in shape, sure, but he isn't contorting his body to accentuate his features. He dresses practically for a battlefield. The player may or may not be attracted to him, but he good looks are completely secondary to his menacing looks. At the same time, there is not a single woman in this game that isn't attractive by those standards. They are all good looking. But only the ones that make a point to show off their assets are the ones I define as sexualized. It just happens to be almost all of them. Irelia shows off cleavage, but I don't count her as sexualized because I don't think he shoved her chest out in an unnatural way. Pose have a lot to do with it.

The section I talk about age was not about saying old people aren't sexy. Again, the theme of the post was showing have the two genders are treated differently from a design perspective. The entire point of that section was to illustrate that they will make a male champion of any age, and they don't make female champions past the age of 30. Gangplank is middle-aged. Sure, he can still be sexy, but he does look older than any female champion in the game, and he has at least two skins that make him look over 50.

All the other guys on the list just happen to be good looking. They aren't sexualized unless they pose in a way, or dress in a way, that draws attention to their fine bodies.

That's why Zyra is sexualized. She could be walking around naked like Eve and it wouldn't necessarily matter, but her pose is very much designed to be enticing. Nidalee isn't the worst offender, I'll admit, but I definitely think her French Maid skin has sexual intent. LeBlanc is a great character, but using *** as a weapon is something exclusive to female champions. It's also appropriate for Ahri, but whether or not it fits the character is irrelevant. They could make male characters with lore that allows them to be sexy, too, but they don't.

Riot has already demonstrated that they are capable of creating engaging characters that aren't sexualized. Default Diana is fantastic, and her she is well received as a champion. Irelia has a pilot skin that was fairly popular got a while. A real pilot, and not a stripper parody. It's great.

My suggestion was a Baba Yaga inspired champion, but they can draw inspiration from anywhere. Maleficent is a mega popular Disney villain. Ursula is widely celebrated, and she's fat! /gasp

I just want to push Riot to challenge themselves, to make more interesting choices, and to be fair to both genders. Graves could have been a female outlaw who dressed the same way, been just as old, and looked just as gritty, and I bet you anything people would still have played her. Why is that acceptable for a man and not a woman?

Thanks again for being respectful. Upvoting you just for that.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

chumbler

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
Another great post.
To add to that, there is absolutely no reason at all that they could not have made for example Rengar or Kha'Zix female.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowcaine View Post
You miss the point completely OP. Nobody is denying the sexualization of the female champions. The point is, most of the playerbase is male and most of it is adolescent as well, so obviously riot will be catering to this playerbase through sexy female champions. I'd actually like most females to be desexualized just a bit, the anorexic body and massive boobs look unrealistic compared to each other and ruin the immersion into the game. Leona's default is personally one of my favorite skins in the entire game. Seriously though, it shouldn't bother you that all these females are sexualized, it's just business and nobody is taking it seriously and making judgements that women are *** toys because of it. Anyone who does has had that opinion before, or is only making jokes. Stop being so sensitive.

By the way, its far more often than not that people like me get flamed and downvoted and have what they're saying twisted around than you. Just look around the forums.
Phreak said "more girls should play LoL." I'm just trying to help him achieve that. My advice: listen to the girls you do have.