@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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Rachel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adumbro Deus View Post
Obviously, I'm not saying that guys shouldn't be feminists, but if you wanna associate yourself with the movement you need to understand what the actual issues facing women (and frankly men as well) because of gender roles are.


There is nothing more depressing then a self-professed feminist participating in sl*t-shaming.
This is true, are you saying that the sexualized champions are ****s and we are **** shaming though? Just curious if that was a sidenote or an argument point


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TrollNewbVsPros

Member

10-06-2012

OP=jealous girl girls in league of legends always sucks and when you told them how bad they are they go all like you can say that things to me i am "girl" so yeah dont try to make the "oh the girls in this community are having a bad time" because the sexist champs and the people who dont enjoy to play with noobs

Because that "girls" already put themselves into to below a man when they say "i am girl " in order to make an excuse for how bad they are

So girls and all the stupid girls and the virgins who support posts like that do me a favor

AND PUT A BULLET IN YOUR HEADS


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Rachel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mittor View Post
Why not advocate for Equalism and/or Humanism? Seems to be a much better cause then just focusing on Feminism, which seems to push more for the pendulum to swing in their favor rather than have things actually be even.
No I don't think it does push to have females ahead at all.
I'm not an expert on feminism so I'm not going to say I'm 100% correct on this, but I'd say feminism has a narrower focus than simply Equalism or Humanism. Since girls have been discriminated (harsh word but true) against for a long time I think its deserving of a singular "movement." Or something like that.


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Mokkun

Senior Member

10-06-2012

I think the age thing was funny.

I'm fairly sure that Anivia is older than the rest of the league put together.
Morgana and Kayle aren't human, and have been fighting a war for ten thousand years.
Evelyn has Ryze's Blue problem. (and I don't think she's human)
LeBlanc is listed as "ageless," and from an earlier time.
Both Sivir and Riven have been around the block more than once, especially sivir.
Soraka is pretty darn old.
You already pointed out Diana.

It's also funny, because almost none of these champions really look as old as they are.

I have issues with your complaints about Riven and Vayne, because I think only the basic skins are considered "canon."

Overall, you've successfully made a detailed point about champions, that has been made many many times.

However, you started this talking about the female gamer population, and I don't think you made a good point there. I don't feel that having "sexy champion skins," makes the game unwelcoming to female players. The fact that society is unwelcoming to female players, keeps them away.

I'd say its more along the same lines as issues with girls and math or science... and with the fact that hormonally, guys are more aggressively competitive, and so are more drawn to games like this. Girls compete, but not usually through violence. I'm not sure we'll ever see a real parity in gender population, even if all games were a bunch of checkered cubes shooting dots at each other.


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Rachel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokkun View Post
I think the age thing was funny.

I'm fairly sure that Anivia is older than the rest of the league put together.
Morgana and Kayle aren't human, and have been fighting a war for ten thousand years.
Evelyn has Ryze's Blue problem. (and I don't think she's human)
LeBlanc is listed as "ageless," and from an earlier time.
Both Sivir and Riven have been around the block more than once, especially sivir.
Soraka is pretty darn old.
You already pointed out Diana.

It's also funny, because almost none of these champions really look as old as they are.

I have issues with your complaints about Riven and Vayne, because I think only the basic skins are considered "canon."

Overall, you've successfully made a detailed point about champions, that has been made many many times.

However, you started this talking about the female gamer population, and I don't think you made a good point there. I don't feel that having "sexy champion skins," makes the game unwelcoming to female players. The fact that society is unwelcoming to female players, keeps them away.

I'd say its more along the same lines as issues with girls and math or science... and with the fact that hormonally, guys are more aggressively competitive, and so are more drawn to games like this. Girls compete, but not usually through violence. I'm not sure we'll ever see a real parity in gender population, even if all games were a bunch of checkered cubes shooting dots at each other.
I actually enjoy "sexy" badass girls to be quite honest. If every one of the girls was a nun in the game I wouldn't enjoy playing it. I don't think I've ever been offended by a skin or champion. Neither have repulsed me from playing the game.


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Efrath

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
If you're not a feminist (i.e. a person who believes females should have the same rights as males) you have issues. Everyone should be a feminist.
I believe both genders should have the same rights, but alas, both genders hasn't had the same rights trough out history and is still going on. Feminism is great but its counterpart (Mens rights activism) probably needs to get more hearing and support so that these to are on par.

Having one ideology in complete control isn't always that good, you have to keep in mind that Feminism is an ideology that at its core is mainly focused on the rights of women rather than both genders (And MRA are of course the opposite). Both are good in my opinion but only one has any real saying in the modern society for the time being.

Quote:
That's sort of the problem, the female characters that are an issue are that way because they're put in sexually submissive poses. Third wave feminism's problem has always been that it gets interpreted by guys to mean that sexual objectification of women is somehow empowering.
Both genders are sexualized, the main difference is that people tend to completely forget the fact that the 2 genders do have their differences and different instincts, criterias and so forth. People speak of the "Male power fantasy" without even asking themselves why it exists and what its origin is.

To make it short, what men are attracted to are typically connected to health and wellbeing on the woman, to make sure she is a healthy partner that can breed and birth your offspring while women it usually is more about power, resources and so forth because you want a partner that can protect you and your offspring and provide for you, because being pregnant and caring for a child alone war pretty darn risky during the stone age.

How do you see on a woman that she is "Healthy"? The body and to see the body, it has to be nude. It's also why make up, high heels and so forth are so common as they all contribute to make increase the image of this.

Now, how do you see on a man that he has power/strength, resources and so forth? Rebellish, strong poses are for example something but otherwise... Well, what you wear matters. There's plenty of women that like men in uniform for example, no? If you look at ads and commercials for male clothing and underwear, you can probably notice these things. Of course, I'm simplifying things a lot here as culture, people around you and the way you are raised most likely play a big role too. The view on what's "sexy" does change after all. And as most things here, this is a personal opinion of mine, there's no solid facts as far as I know.

Anyway, I want more diversity as much as anyone else and I'm fine with discussing it as long as no one tries to ban others from designing "Sexy" characters, because I don't believe in limiting artistic freedom.


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Adumbro Deus

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NidaKat View Post
idk nidalee was raised by cougars. I accept that

Soraka isn't human. clothing choice is complete irrelevant, even if the new artist made sure to give her a the fattest ass in league.
I don't know I just play the game. People spend too much time thinking and joking about *** it's become second nature and a huge issue with everything that comes around.

In my opinion the "sexualization" perfectly fits NA's magazine reading and dressing women. They dress like this all the damn time. Especially where I live.

BUT i also would love to see more female of diverse properties and themes, feels, etc.
Which is why the way they dress isn't the issue, it's the poses.

When's the last time you saw a women's fashion mag have the "broken back" pose (the one where the body is awkwardly twisted to show both **** and butt)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mittor View Post
Why not advocate for Equalism and/or Humanism? Seems to be a much better cause then just focusing on Feminism, which seems to push more for the pendulum to swing in their favor rather than have things actually be even.
Because if there's not a movement to focus on the particular issues it tends to get ignored.

Hence why the men's side of gender roles hasn't really been touched on, it's simple demographics. Of course the current men's rights movement doesn't help because they see feminism as enemy when the reality is both their problems are caused by gender roles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
This is true, are you saying that the sexualized champions are ****s and we are **** shaming though? Just curious if that was a sidenote or an argument point
No, saying that we should objective to female champs being constantly submissively sexualized isn't sl*t-shaming. There's no reason for fiora to have the "broken back" pose especially because it's not consistent with her character at all.

What is implicit sl*t shaming is objecting to women simply having limited clothing because it shames women who dress in similar manners by implication.


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IS1a420802574b139f7409f

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Well, on page 50-something I doubt this will ever really be read, but as I've posted in countless threads like this, I'll post once more.

In my experience, it is almost entirely guys and a very small fringe of radical feminists that argue this point. The girls that I know that play games pick characters larger in order of cute => sexy girl => sexy guy => monster => ugly guy => ugly girl. Now there is going to be a swarm attacking me for the terms "girls I knew" being entirely subjective and the term "ugly" instead of "varied" or whatever, but from my prospective that's just how it is. And before it gets brought up, yes, in my experience female gamers are much more likely to pick a character based on looks than anything else, especially early in their careers.

So yes, I think it does scare away a small fringe of radical feminists from the game to make the majority of the female characters sexy. I do not at all think it is responsible for scaring away the majority of a gender.

Quite honestly the majority of girls do not enjoy hyper-competitive games (in my experience). Again, flame on if it makes you happy, but this is my experience. Even in WoW where I knew almost as many female gamers as male gamers the vast majority of them did not engage in PvP (and when they did, only with the better PvPers in the guild to make sure were likely to win, and generally only very rarely or when trying to achieve specific PvP only rewards).

If I knew how to get women to enjoy PvP games. I don't know if that is cultural or something else, and we'll start seeing female e-Sport leagues, just as we have female sport leagues in pretty much all other sports now.


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Dawgenstien

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krejdar View Post
Uhm, Gragas is obese AND ugly and he still sells. Why? Because he's a good champion. Simple as that. If they released a female Troll or even an ugly female Void creature (which they have yet to do) it would have the same chances of selling as any other champions. Your argument is basically saying Karma is not an attractive enough champion and that's why SHE doesn't sell, when in reality it's because she is very weak and has next to no role in the current meta. Same as Trundle (who I find to be good fun). Same as Sejuani.
nope, Gragas sells because he's a bad-ass, He lives in the mountains brewing/drinking his magic alcohol which made him enormous. Gragas has been one of my favorite champs since his released and personally, I don't think he's ugly, He has an awesome beard and he's huge, and I certainly didn't buy him on release day "because he's a good champion", I had never even seen him used until I played him, and he was definitely not a good champion when he was released.

It's funny that you mentioned Sej too, cause she's also one of my favorites, although I will admit they went a bit over the top on her lack of armor/clothing, I think she'd be more appealing with more armor, but if they had made her a burly woman I think that she would be less appealing, just because the boar has to support her weight. Keep in mind also that this is a fantasy game intended to entertain it's audience, and if you look at any form of entertainment you rarely see "ugly" woman, because they want to appeal to as large an audience as possible. And if perhaps you're just upset that none of the women accurately represent women in reality that's because this game isn't reality, in fact, none of the guys look realistic either because Fantasy is supposed to be extraordinary.

This is such an irritating topic for me to see popping up all the time, in my mind the ones complaining will never be satisfied, the OP mentioned that RIOT could make a champ similar to Ursula from The Little Mermaid, and I'd be onboard for that, but is that enough to satisfy all of the people complaining? No doubt this would cause a thread to be made saying that this champ was disrespectful to large women, and furthermore threads like this one would likely continue to arise.

Anyways, I can't think of one champ in LoL who's physical appearance I can relate to, and that's not a problem at all because LoL is a game, and I live in reality.


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Phyrexia

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
No I don't think it does push to have females ahead at all.
I'm not an expert on feminism so I'm not going to say I'm 100% correct on this, but I'd say feminism has a narrower focus than simply Equalism or Humanism. Since girls have been discriminated (harsh word but true) against for a long time I think its deserving of a singular "movement." Or something like that.
The problem is, while the ideal of Feminism is pure and good, its most vocal and aggressive advocates are just so abrasive and caustic that it's hard to associate a positive image. Think of PETA. Treating animals with respect is a noble idea, but they take it to such extremes that everyone just rolls their eyes when they see/hear PETA in the news.

It's why we see things like "All men are rapists" or buzzwords like "mansplaining" and "rape culture". I'm all for equality for the genders and everyone else, but I'm not going to associate myself with a group that assumes I'm a felon based on my genitals.

Look at the Rebecca Watson situation. Ignoring the internet crapstorm that happened after (there were ugly things on both sides I don't like from that). The gist of the situation was that this woman was in an elevator at 4 AM along with a man. The man asks her if she'd like to get a cup of coffee. She say's she's not interested and he says ok and doesn't speak to her again and leaves her alone.

She then goes on the internet and tries to make some decree that he was incredibly creepy and oppressive for daring to talk to her. That he should have known better than to initiate conversation with a woman because she didn't know if he'd rape her.

It's this situation that formed my initial beef with what's wrong with feminism today. You don't get to just constantly yell at men and degrade them for "sl*t shaming" and being rape machines when the baseline for offensive behavior is *drum roll* talking to you.