@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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tempnameA461

Member

10-06-2012

Technology is the reason for most verbal abuse nowadays.
Kids are so consumed by it that they can't focus in English class.
Please do your part so we can stop verbs from being abused.


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Firellius

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BerserkSheal View Post
Already there's loads of people who think that verbal abuse should not be a reportable offense because there is a mute button. It's working in the wrong direction. By dumping the cleanup on the victim, the perpetrators think that they're in the clear and they can keep doing it. - Same argument as the other person and hence the mute + report option.

Are you following, since when does being muted and reported and more than likely banned for said abuse giving off the impression that they got away scot free and are thus allowed to continue.

OVER THE HEAD. If you are adamant against mute, tell riot to remove it. I can`t wait to see that floodgate open.
The report is fine. Mute is not. I won't tell anyone to remove it because we do not have better than that at the moment, but that is something we need to strive for. People perceive mute as the answer, and that is making people like you think that the situation is "decent" and it's making others think that it's reason enough to have verbal abuse no longer be a bannable offense.

Mute is damage control, not prevention. It's painkillers against a burnout induced migraine. It doesn't deal with the problem.

Over this entire discussion, I don't think you've mentioned that the perpetrators are the heart of the problem. You're not adressing them because the victim has a way to defend himself/herself from them. That is what is wrong with "Mute". It stops people from fighting for a higher moral standard.

Which would you rather have: A game in which everyone just mutes the verbal abuser, or a game in which there are no verbal abusers?


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Fouquet2

Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firellius View Post
It should be lovey dovey! That would be normal, it's normal for people to be civilised with one another!

millenia of war atrociticies commited by the human race and the current state of the world tends to disagree with the fundamental core of your argument. it is NOT normal for people to be civilised with each other. in fact the norm would be the complete opposite.


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Adumbro Deus

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarot witch View Post
I'm a girl, and this thread makes me angry.

Why do people ignore all the sexualised males? Hot men in a position of power represent an idealisation of men. People seem to think the Pentakill Olaf thread was a joke, and it probably was, but the point is quite valid. Why do you feel the need to stick up for the poor girls? I know it's in your genes, but can you please avoid giving these people attention?

If we're going into the equality route, I want more guys like Ezreal and less guys like Jayce, Draven, Darius, Varus, Graves, Lee Sin (that's going back over a year in releases).

For fairness' sake, here's the "sexualised" women released after Lee Sin: Syndra, Zyra, Fiora, Ahri, Shyvana.

Looks like one more **** is in order, no???

You know what makes girls feel uncomfortable in this game, and any game? It's people like you that a have a chance encounter with some stuck up ***** and decide to post about it, perpetuating the stereotype that girls only care about what the heroes look like, and that they feel hurt and sexualised by the big bad companies.

**** you, OP.
It wasn't ignored...

There is exactly one male character that's sexualized and even then it's a skin. Tango twisted fate. The male characters are IDEALIZED, they're appealing to the exact same audience that battle bunny riven is intended to appeal to. That's because of pose, specifically the broken back pose.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Girl Gamer Cutie View Post
OP is ****shaming.

Really don't get radfems. One minute they're complaining about how it should be the right of a girl to dress however provocatively she wants, and then the next minute they're complaining about sexualization of female characters.
I wouldn't be that hard on the OP, he actually discusses idealization vs sexualization, the problem is he doesn't look at the logical conclusion for female champs who are idealized and simply wearing very little.

It's unfortunately pretty common among males that are concerned about feminist issues but simply not knowledgable, hence but it requires education cause usually their heart is in the right place.


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vargo

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
So I was watching the quarterfinals today, and they did a segment on Alex Ich. Alex talked about how he is one of the few gamers who is married, when inspired a rather odd comment from Phreak. “More girls should play League of Legends.” I found it odd, because the LoL community isn’t always the most welcoming. I know of plenty of girls that do play, and they choose a gender neutral summoner name because of the grief they receive for making their gender known. I know of even more girls that choose not to play LoL at all because they don’t feel welcome.

One of my best friends is a girl gamer. She does play LoL, but only when playing with her boyfriend and myself. She feels marginalized by the LoL community, and Riot endorses this attitude indirectly. Whenever gender issues are brought up in these forums, there is a huge backlash. It’s almost as if gamers are threatened by this topic. They don’t want them womenfolk to change their games to make them more inclusive. They like that Riot caters to the majority (straight white male). Any time someone makes a perfectly valid point about sexism, they are met with massive downvotes and malicious comments.
How has Riot endorsed this attitude? While I’ve never witnessed a Riot take part in burning these feminists at the stake, they do dismiss these topics. I made a post about how human female champions are treated differently than human male champions, and Morello pointed out that I ignored counterexamples like Lulu, Tryndamere, Riven, etc. and therefore my point was invalid. I attempted to reengage Morello in conversation, but it he had moved on to other questions. Meanwhile, I’ve seen two threads this week mocking the entire conversation, each attracted three red posts joining in. These threads claimed that Pentakill Olaf and Gragas over-sexualize the male gender, and has caused the poster to be insecure with his body.

If Riot seriously wants to attract more girls to their games, then I suggest they listen to what the few girls who do play League of Legends have to say. Have a real conversation with them. Entertain the idea that there really is a problem with how women are treated by the players, and how female champions are treated by Riot. I’d find it refreshing if a Riot employee could actually admit that there is a problem, or that I at least raise some valid points. My friend knew Pentakill Olaf was going to be used as a counterpoint to “male champions aren’t sexualized” the second she saw him. But Olaf is not aesthetically pleasing to most women. His physique still caters to the same people that Miss Fortune does. I see the argument that “This is a game. Who cares if a champion is sexy?” That’s not the issue. The problem isn’t that there is no mancandy for women to oggle over. The problem is that champions are treated differently based on whether it is male or female. Riot is completely comfortable sexifying female champion, even in cases where it isn’t actually appropriate for the character. Akali’s outfit is impractical for a ninja. Shen and Kennen are completely covered up, and Akali is constantly on the edge of a nip slip.

Yes, there are obvious exceptions. Since I don’t want to be accused of sampling champions that prove my point, and ignoring ones that don’t, I am going to compile a complete list. But first, let’s list all the champions that are irrelevant to the conversation. Morello used Lulu as a counterexample, but I was careful to use the term “adult human females” because yordles just shouldn’t count. They exist to be cute, not sexy. Male yordles are fuzzy animals. Likewise, children shouldn’t count, because sexualizing them is awkward and inappropriate.

Monsters*:
Anivia, Cho’gath, Fiddlesticks, Fizz, Galio, Hecarim, Karthus, Kha’Zix, Kog’Maw, Malphite, Maokai, Nocturne, Sion, Skarner, Trundle, Urgot, Yorick

Yordles:
Amumu, Corki, Heimerdinger, Kennen, Lulu, Poppy, Rumble, Teemo, Tristana, Veigar, Ziggs

Automatons:
Blitzcrank, Orianna

Children:
Annie, Nunu

Anthropomorphic Animals:
Alistar, Nasus, Rammus, Renekton, Rengar, Twitch, Volibear, Warwick, Wukong

Anomalies**:
Brand, Dr. Mundo, Jax, Kassadin, Mordekaiser, Nautilus, Xerath

*My definition of “monsters” might be broader than yours. I went ahead and included all the undead champions, void creatures, and anything that wasn’t humanoid. Anivia is the only female monster, which stands out even further if you lump in the champions that I categorized as Anthropomorphic Animals and Anomalies.

**Anomalies are champions I really didn’t know how to categorize. An argument could be made that they are human enough to qualify for the main conversation, or that they could be thrown into the monster list. If someone wants to reference one of these champions for the sake of an argument, I’d be willing to consider it.
So that leaves us with the following champions:

Adult Humans:
Ahri, Akali, Ashe, Caitlyn, Cassiopeia, Darius, Diana, Draven, Evelynn, Ezreal, Fiora, Gangplank, Garen, Gragas, Graves, Irelia, Janna, Jarvan IV, Jayce, Karma, Katarina, Kayle, LeBlanc, Lee Sin, Leona, Lux, Malzahar, Master Yi, Miss Fortune, Morgana, Nidalee, Olaf, Pantheon, Riven, Ryze, Sejuani, Shaco, Shen, Shyvana, Singed, Sivir, Sona, Soraka, Swain, Syndra, Talon, Taric, Tryndamere, Twisted Fate, Udyr, Varus, Vayne,Viktor, Vladamir, Xin Zhao, Zilean, Zyra

Not all of these champions are human, such as Zyra, Varus, Kayle, Shyvana, etc., but have enough human traits to count. Sure, Cassiopeia is partially a snake, and Ahri has nine tails, but what keeps them from being anthropomorphic animals is the fact that parts of their bodies look completely human.

So now that we got that out of the way, we can finally get to the meat and potatoes. The argument I am trying to make is not that every female champions is sexualized, and zero male champions are. My argument is that female champions are treated differently, and that there is less diversity amongst the female cast members. I will start with the most obvious disparity, which just happens to be sexualization.

Let’s compare male and female champions that receive comparable skins. Male champions tend to receive legitimate “profession” skins, like cop, doctor, cowboy, etc. Female champions tend to get stripper versions of those skins. The following is a list of what I call “Stripper Skins.” For contrast, I compare them to equivalent male skins.

• Nurse Akali is a stripper nurse. No real nurse dresses like that. However, strippers with themed costumes do dress like that. Surgeon Shen is an actual medical professional.
• Cowgirl Miss Fortune is just missing a pole. Her attire is completely impractical I sure hope she is wearing underwear under that flap. High Noon Twisted Fate actually looks like he belongs in the Wild West. Sheriff Caitlyn is wearing hotpants.
• Officer Caitlyn is in many ways the most disappointing. She is in a position of authority. She is the Sheriff of Piltover. But, she gets a stripper cop outfit. Riot Graves, and outlaw, actually looks like a real cop. No officer in real life dresses like Caitlyn. They’d never be taken seriously. She could have been a badass. Real missed opportunity, here.
• Battle Bunny Riven is a Playboy Bunny. This is the most blatant one of them all. You can’t even pretend that this is anything but a stripper skin. There isn’t a male counterpart for this.
• Prestigious LeBlanc is a Vegas showgirl. Magnificent Twisted Fate is an actual magician.
• French Maid Nidalee is something you’d see in a gentleman’s club.
• Heartseeker Vayne. I guess if Jack of Hearts Twisted Fate is the male equivalent, though again, the male character is fully clothed.
• Mistletoe LeBlanc, Candy Cane Miss Fortune, Snow Bunny Nidalee draw a strong contrast to Santa Gragas and Old St. Zilean.
• Sandstorm Katarina is a belly dancer.
• Red Card Katarina doesn’t dress like any referee I’ve ever seen. Fifa banned players from taking their shirts off.
• Kitty Kat Katarina reminds me of Halle Berry’s Catwoman, and that’s offensive on a whole new level.

Not a single male champion has a stripper skin. If I missed something, please let me know. You could have a sexy fireman or something. It’s something exclusive the female champions. It’s just one of the ways that women are treated differently.

Next, we will talk about the base design of champions. Miss Fortune and Ahri are flirtatious, and while that isn’t really a problem, there are no guys that tease or flirt. The following are champions that are sexualized, not just in skins, but in their default splash art.

• Zyra is technically a plant, but she is using a human body as a vessel; one that she barely covers.
• Syndra’s cleavage is the focal point of her splash art.
• Akali’s rather large breasts are barely covered by those strips of cloth. It’s completely impractical for a serious warrior.
• LeBlanc is barely covered.
• Sivir is wearing the most pointless armor of all time. She isn’t protecting any vital points.
• Sona’s boobs. Need I say more?
• Ahri at least has lore to justify her being a flirt.
• Miss Fortune is hands down the most sexualized character in the game. In her new splash art it looks like he clothes don’t even cover her nipples. If we had more of a bird’s-eye-view, this game would probably have an AO title
• Caitlyn should probably not shop in the children’s section and find something that fits.
• Fiora’s skin tight outfit accentuates her ass.
• Evelynn is wearing lingerie. She is literally walking around the fields of justice in her underwear. I guess she is relying on her stealth.
• Lux used to be a counterexample. She used to be.
• Morgana gets thinner and thinner, and her breasts get bigger and bigger. She is also wearing a bra to battle. Smart.
• Cassiopeia may not be human from the waist down, but if you are arguing that that disqualifies her, then you are arguing that mermaids are not a sexual fantasy to millions.
• Katarina screams ***. She has three stripper skins, but the default skin isn’t any less sexualized.
• Nidalee kind of has an excuse, since she is basically She-Tarzan.
• Janna even makes a phone *** reference, solidifying the portrayal of women as adult entertainment workers.
• Soraka’s old art was all about the side boob. Her new art is better, but still very sexy.
• Sejuani seems to be immune to the cold. In fact, everyone from Freljord seems to be.
• Ashe is better than Sejuani, at least.
• Varus. The only male champion that makes the list. More on why, later.

So here are the female champions that are not sexualized (much):

• Karma is great. Her Sun Goddess skin is culturally appropriate, so I don’t have any issues.
• Leona is wearing high heels to battle and her armor accentuates her figure a bit too much. Compare her to armored champions like Garen, Taric, Darius, ect. There is a noticeable difference. Still, Leona gets a passing grade.
• Kayle is perhaps the best portrayed female. Her armor is actually practical. No complaints.
• Shyvana is pretty well done. None of her skins really do her an injustice.
• Irelia is acceptable, in my opinion. Her Frostblade skin showcases her ass a little much, though. I really like that Aviator Irelia looks like a real pilot, and not a stripper.
• Diana’s default look is fantastic. I am not thrilled about her Dark Valkyrie skin.

So there are six female champions that aren’t overtly sexualized, and 22 that are (Battle Bunny Riven and Heartseeker Vayne did them in). Over 78% of the adult human female champions are sexualized. That number is pretty freakin’ high.

The following are male champions that people use as examples of sexualized men. They may show skin, but being shirtless means nothing when they are morbidly obese or freakishly muscular. Female body builders are nasty. Male body builders are also nasty.

• Gragas. Everyone uses him as a joke example, but it’s frustrating for those of us trying to have a real conversation.
• Tryndamere is built like a rhino. I’m tempted to move him to the anthropomorphic animals list.
• Pentakill Olaf is not going to turn anyone on. He still caters to straight guys’ tastes.
• Lee Sin is shirtless, and not hideously muscular. But his shirtlessness is more about him being a martial artist. It serves a practical function. It’s not about being seductive.
• Ruthless Pantheon isn’t contorting his body in unnatural ways to show off his body. His physique is secondary to his battle prowess. There is nothing about this skin that suggests the artist wanted to make him look sexy, even if he isn’t wearing much. To me, it’s the same as Sun Goddess Karma. It’s not about *** appeal.
• Twisted Fate is suave, but his charm has nothing to do with his body, and more to do with his style.
• Ezreal has boyish good looks, and he is a favorite amongst players who are attracted to males. But being attractive and being a sexual object is not the same thing. If it were, I’d have to change the verdict on all six of the female champions that have a passing grade.

If you don’t agree with me, or you think I missed a champion or skin that should have made the list, let me know. I’m open to discussion. In fact, that's the entire reason I am posting this. I want this to turn into a discussion.

Now, Varus made the sexy list because he has an attractive physique, and his nakedness doesn’t seem to serve any apparent function other than fanservice. Still, he is the only example I could find that meets these requirements. That is one male champion out of 28. That means 3.5% of male champions are sexualized, and 78.5% of female champions are sexualized. How can you tell me that there is no disparity? That everything is fine. How can you deny the fact that women are treated differently?

Moving on, let’s talk about body types. I won’t devote too much time to this, because there isn’t much to say, but when you look at the guys, you have skinny Shaco, bulky Tryndamere, obese Gragas, Athletic Talon, and everything inbetween. Female champions range from super model thin to anorexic supermodel. You can see Morgana’s rib cage. There really is only one body type that gets recycled with every female champion. Bust sizes may vary from moderately large and “you’ve got to be kidding me,” but the frame of the ladies is indistinguishable.

Next, I want to talk about apparent age of champions. The men enjoy a huge range; you have youthful Ezreal, who could pass for a teenager, to Zilean, who is ancient. Here are the champions that look middle aged or older:

• Darius is graying and wrinkles are forming. He looks like he is in his mid 40’s.
• Draven can’t be much younger. Early 40’s.
• Gangplank’s beard makes it hard to see his face, but he looks like he is at least late 30’s. His skins can age him quite a bit.
• Gragas can be anywhere between 30 and 50. It’s hard to tell.
• Graves looks at least 45. Jailbreak Graves looks even older.
• Ryze is tough to place, because he is blue, but if Tribal Ryze is his human form, dude looks 50+.
• Shaco looks like a creeper. The makeup makes him impossible to place, but his bone structure suggests that he is well past young-adulthood.
• Singed is definitely past his prime.
• Swain doesn’t look a day younger than 50.
• Tryndamere is at least 40.
• Udyr is certainly in his 50’s.
• Viktor’s prototype skin shows that he is graying.
• Zilean is a geezer. For someone with time powers, he makes no attempt to reverse his age.

Absent from this list is every single female champion. Diana looks the oldest, at maybe early 30’s. This is pretty indisputable proof that Riot has different design philosophies for male and female champions. I’m not asking Riot to make an ugly female champion just for the sake of making her ugly. I just don’t understand why every female champion has to be young, thin, and attractive, but they aren’t afraid to deviate from that mold when they are making a male champion. I tell you, I would absolutely love a Baba Yaga inspired champion. Ursula and Maleficent is extremely popular as far as Disney villains go, so it’s not like older ladies, or even fat ladies don’t have any appeal.

So Riot, what say you? I worked hard on this because I believe in you as a company. I’m really hoping this doesn’t go ignored.

tldr


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Fouquet2

Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by vargo got carryd View Post
Quote:




Originally Posted by Rauhel

So I was watching the quarterfinals today, and they did a segment on Alex Ich. Alex talked about how he is one of the few gamers who is married, when inspired a rather odd comment from Phreak. “More girls should play League of Legends.” I found it odd, because the LoL community isn’t always the most welcoming. I know of plenty of girls that do play, and they choose a gender neutral summoner name because of the grief they receive for making their gender known. I know of even more girls that choose not to play LoL at all because they don’t feel welcome.

One of my best friends is a girl gamer. She does play LoL, but only when playing with her boyfriend and myself. She feels marginalized by the LoL community, and Riot endorses this attitude indirectly. Whenever gender issues are brought up in these forums, there is a huge backlash. It’s almost as if gamers are threatened by this topic. They don’t want them womenfolk to change their games to make them more inclusive. They like that Riot caters to the majority (straight white male). Any time someone makes a perfectly valid point about sexism, they are met with massive downvotes and malicious comments.
How has Riot endorsed this attitude? While I’ve never witnessed a Riot take part in burning these feminists at the stake, they do dismiss these topics. I made a post about how human female champions are treated differently than human male champions, and Morello pointed out that I ignored counterexamples like Lulu, Tryndamere, Riven, etc. and therefore my point was invalid. I attempted to reengage Morello in conversation, but it he had moved on to other questions. Meanwhile, I’ve seen two threads this week mocking the entire conversation, each attracted three red posts joining in. These threads claimed that Pentakill Olaf and Gragas over-sexualize the male gender, and has caused the poster to be insecure with his body.

If Riot seriously wants to attract more girls to their games, then I suggest they listen to what the few girls who do play League of Legends have to say. Have a real conversation with them. Entertain the idea that there really is a problem with how women are treated by the players, and how female champions are treated by Riot. I’d find it refreshing if a Riot employee could actually admit that there is a problem, or that I at least raise some valid points. My friend knew Pentakill Olaf was going to be used as a counterpoint to “male champions aren’t sexualized” the second she saw him. But Olaf is not aesthetically pleasing to most women. His physique still caters to the same people that Miss Fortune does. I see the argument that “This is a game. Who cares if a champion is sexy?” That’s not the issue. The problem isn’t that there is no mancandy for women to oggle over. The problem is that champions are treated differently based on whether it is male or female. Riot is completely comfortable sexifying female champion, even in cases where it isn’t actually appropriate for the character. Akali’s outfit is impractical for a ninja. Shen and Kennen are completely covered up, and Akali is constantly on the edge of a nip slip.

Yes, there are obvious exceptions. Since I don’t want to be accused of sampling champions that prove my point, and ignoring ones that don’t, I am going to compile a complete list. But first, let’s list all the champions that are irrelevant to the conversation. Morello used Lulu as a counterexample, but I was careful to use the term “adult human females” because yordles just shouldn’t count. They exist to be cute, not sexy. Male yordles are fuzzy animals. Likewise, children shouldn’t count, because sexualizing them is awkward and inappropriate.

Monsters*:
Anivia, Cho’gath, Fiddlesticks, Fizz, Galio, Hecarim, Karthus, Kha’Zix, Kog’Maw, Malphite, Maokai, Nocturne, Sion, Skarner, Trundle, Urgot, Yorick

Yordles:
Amumu, Corki, Heimerdinger, Kennen, Lulu, Poppy, Rumble, Teemo, Tristana, Veigar, Ziggs

Automatons:
Blitzcrank, Orianna

Children:
Annie, Nunu

Anthropomorphic Animals:
Alistar, Nasus, Rammus, Renekton, Rengar, Twitch, Volibear, Warwick, Wukong

Anomalies**:
Brand, Dr. Mundo, Jax, Kassadin, Mordekaiser, Nautilus, Xerath

*My definition of “monsters” might be broader than yours. I went ahead and included all the undead champions, void creatures, and anything that wasn’t humanoid. Anivia is the only female monster, which stands out even further if you lump in the champions that I categorized as Anthropomorphic Animals and Anomalies.

**Anomalies are champions I really didn’t know how to categorize. An argument could be made that they are human enough to qualify for the main conversation, or that they could be thrown into the monster list. If someone wants to reference one of these champions for the sake of an argument, I’d be willing to consider it.
So that leaves us with the following champions:

Adult Humans:
Ahri, Akali, Ashe, Caitlyn, Cassiopeia, Darius, Diana, Draven, Evelynn, Ezreal, Fiora, Gangplank, Garen, Gragas, Graves, Irelia, Janna, Jarvan IV, Jayce, Karma, Katarina, Kayle, LeBlanc, Lee Sin, Leona, Lux, Malzahar, Master Yi, Miss Fortune, Morgana, Nidalee, Olaf, Pantheon, Riven, Ryze, Sejuani, Shaco, Shen, Shyvana, Singed, Sivir, Sona, Soraka, Swain, Syndra, Talon, Taric, Tryndamere, Twisted Fate, Udyr, Varus, Vayne,Viktor, Vladamir, Xin Zhao, Zilean, Zyra

Not all of these champions are human, such as Zyra, Varus, Kayle, Shyvana, etc., but have enough human traits to count. Sure, Cassiopeia is partially a snake, and Ahri has nine tails, but what keeps them from being anthropomorphic animals is the fact that parts of their bodies look completely human.

So now that we got that out of the way, we can finally get to the meat and potatoes. The argument I am trying to make is not that every female champions is sexualized, and zero male champions are. My argument is that female champions are treated differently, and that there is less diversity amongst the female cast members. I will start with the most obvious disparity, which just happens to be sexualization.

Let’s compare male and female champions that receive comparable skins. Male champions tend to receive legitimate “profession” skins, like cop, doctor, cowboy, etc. Female champions tend to get stripper versions of those skins. The following is a list of what I call “Stripper Skins.” For contrast, I compare them to equivalent male skins.

• Nurse Akali is a stripper nurse. No real nurse dresses like that. However, strippers with themed costumes do dress like that. Surgeon Shen is an actual medical professional.
• Cowgirl Miss Fortune is just missing a pole. Her attire is completely impractical I sure hope she is wearing underwear under that flap. High Noon Twisted Fate actually looks like he belongs in the Wild West. Sheriff Caitlyn is wearing hotpants.
• Officer Caitlyn is in many ways the most disappointing. She is in a position of authority. She is the Sheriff of Piltover. But, she gets a stripper cop outfit. Riot Graves, and outlaw, actually looks like a real cop. No officer in real life dresses like Caitlyn. They’d never be taken seriously. She could have been a badass. Real missed opportunity, here.
• Battle Bunny Riven is a Playboy Bunny. This is the most blatant one of them all. You can’t even pretend that this is anything but a stripper skin. There isn’t a male counterpart for this.
• Prestigious LeBlanc is a Vegas showgirl. Magnificent Twisted Fate is an actual magician.
• French Maid Nidalee is something you’d see in a gentleman’s club.
• Heartseeker Vayne. I guess if Jack of Hearts Twisted Fate is the male equivalent, though again, the male character is fully clothed.
• Mistletoe LeBlanc, Candy Cane Miss Fortune, Snow Bunny Nidalee draw a strong contrast to Santa Gragas and Old St. Zilean.
• Sandstorm Katarina is a belly dancer.
• Red Card Katarina doesn’t dress like any referee I’ve ever seen. Fifa banned players from taking their shirts off.
• Kitty Kat Katarina reminds me of Halle Berry’s Catwoman, and that’s offensive on a whole new level.

Not a single male champion has a stripper skin. If I missed something, please let me know. You could have a sexy fireman or something. It’s something exclusive the female champions. It’s just one of the ways that women are treated differently.

Next, we will talk about the base design of champions. Miss Fortune and Ahri are flirtatious, and while that isn’t really a problem, there are no guys that tease or flirt. The following are champions that are sexualized, not just in skins, but in their default splash art.

• Zyra is technically a plant, but she is using a human body as a vessel; one that she barely covers.
• Syndra’s cleavage is the focal point of her splash art.
• Akali’s rather large breasts are barely covered by those strips of cloth. It’s completely impractical for a serious warrior.
• LeBlanc is barely covered.
• Sivir is wearing the most pointless armor of all time. She isn’t protecting any vital points.
• Sona’s boobs. Need I say more?
• Ahri at least has lore to justify her being a flirt.
• Miss Fortune is hands down the most sexualized character in the game. In her new splash art it looks like he clothes don’t even cover her nipples. If we had more of a bird’s-eye-view, this game would probably have an AO title
• Caitlyn should probably not shop in the children’s section and find something that fits.
• Fiora’s skin tight outfit accentuates her ass.
• Evelynn is wearing lingerie. She is literally walking around the fields of justice in her underwear. I guess she is relying on her stealth.
• Lux used to be a counterexample. She used to be.
• Morgana gets thinner and thinner, and her breasts get bigger and bigger. She is also wearing a bra to battle. Smart.
• Cassiopeia may not be human from the waist down, but if you are arguing that that disqualifies her, then you are arguing that mermaids are not a sexual fantasy to millions.
• Katarina screams ***. She has three stripper skins, but the default skin isn’t any less sexualized.
• Nidalee kind of has an excuse, since she is basically She-Tarzan.
• Janna even makes a phone *** reference, solidifying the portrayal of women as adult entertainment workers.
• Soraka’s old art was all about the side boob. Her new art is better, but still very sexy.
• Sejuani seems to be immune to the cold. In fact, everyone from Freljord seems to be.
• Ashe is better than Sejuani, at least.
• Varus. The only male champion that makes the list. More on why, later.

So here are the female champions that are not sexualized (much):

• Karma is great. Her Sun Goddess skin is culturally appropriate, so I don’t have any issues.
• Leona is wearing high heels to battle and her armor accentuates her figure a bit too much. Compare her to armored champions like Garen, Taric, Darius, ect. There is a noticeable difference. Still, Leona gets a passing grade.
• Kayle is perhaps the best portrayed female. Her armor is actually practical. No complaints.
• Shyvana is pretty well done. None of her skins really do her an injustice.
• Irelia is acceptable, in my opinion. Her Frostblade skin showcases her ass a little much, though. I really like that Aviator Irelia looks like a real pilot, and not a stripper.
• Diana’s default look is fantastic. I am not thrilled about her Dark Valkyrie skin.

So there are six female champions that aren’t overtly sexualized, and 22 that are (Battle Bunny Riven and Heartseeker Vayne did them in). Over 78% of the adult human female champions are sexualized. That number is pretty freakin’ high.

The following are male champions that people use as examples of sexualized men. They may show skin, but being shirtless means nothing when they are morbidly obese or freakishly muscular. Female body builders are nasty. Male body builders are also nasty.

• Gragas. Everyone uses him as a joke example, but it’s frustrating for those of us trying to have a real conversation.
• Tryndamere is built like a rhino. I’m tempted to move him to the anthropomorphic animals list.
• Pentakill Olaf is not going to turn anyone on. He still caters to straight guys’ tastes.
• Lee Sin is shirtless, and not hideously muscular. But his shirtlessness is more about him being a martial artist. It serves a practical function. It’s not about being seductive.
• Ruthless Pantheon isn’t contorting his body in unnatural ways to show off his body. His physique is secondary to his battle prowess. There is nothing about this skin that suggests the artist wanted to make him look sexy, even if he isn’t wearing much. To me, it’s the same as Sun Goddess Karma. It’s not about *** appeal.
• Twisted Fate is suave, but his charm has nothing to do with his body, and more to do with his style.
• Ezreal has boyish good looks, and he is a favorite amongst players who are attracted to males. But being attractive and being a sexual object is not the same thing. If it were, I’d have to change the verdict on all six of the female champions that have a passing grade.

If you don’t agree with me, or you think I missed a champion or skin that should have made the list, let me know. I’m open to discussion. In fact, that's the entire reason I am posting this. I want this to turn into a discussion.

Now, Varus made the sexy list because he has an attractive physique, and his nakedness doesn’t seem to serve any apparent function other than fanservice. Still, he is the only example I could find that meets these requirements. That is one male champion out of 28. That means 3.5% of male champions are sexualized, and 78.5% of female champions are sexualized. How can you tell me that there is no disparity? That everything is fine. How can you deny the fact that women are treated differently?

Moving on, let’s talk about body types. I won’t devote too much time to this, because there isn’t much to say, but when you look at the guys, you have skinny Shaco, bulky Tryndamere, obese Gragas, Athletic Talon, and everything inbetween. Female champions range from super model thin to anorexic supermodel. You can see Morgana’s rib cage. There really is only one body type that gets recycled with every female champion. Bust sizes may vary from moderately large and “you’ve got to be kidding me,” but the frame of the ladies is indistinguishable.

Next, I want to talk about apparent age of champions. The men enjoy a huge range; you have youthful Ezreal, who could pass for a teenager, to Zilean, who is ancient. Here are the champions that look middle aged or older:

• Darius is graying and wrinkles are forming. He looks like he is in his mid 40’s.
• Draven can’t be much younger. Early 40’s.
• Gangplank’s beard makes it hard to see his face, but he looks like he is at least late 30’s. His skins can age him quite a bit.
• Gragas can be anywhere between 30 and 50. It’s hard to tell.
• Graves looks at least 45. Jailbreak Graves looks even older.
• Ryze is tough to place, because he is blue, but if Tribal Ryze is his human form, dude looks 50+.
• Shaco looks like a creeper. The makeup makes him impossible to place, but his bone structure suggests that he is well past young-adulthood.
• Singed is definitely past his prime.
• Swain doesn’t look a day younger than 50.
• Tryndamere is at least 40.
• Udyr is certainly in his 50’s.
• Viktor’s prototype skin shows that he is graying.
• Zilean is a geezer. For someone with time powers, he makes no attempt to reverse his age.

Absent from this list is every single female champion. Diana looks the oldest, at maybe early 30’s. This is pretty indisputable proof that Riot has different design philosophies for male and female champions. I’m not asking Riot to make an ugly female champion just for the sake of making her ugly. I just don’t understand why every female champion has to be young, thin, and attractive, but they aren’t afraid to deviate from that mold when they are making a male champion. I tell you, I would absolutely love a Baba Yaga inspired champion. Ursula and Maleficent is extremely popular as far as Disney villains go, so it’s not like older ladies, or even fat ladies don’t have any appeal.

So Riot, what say you? I worked hard on this because I believe in you as a company. I’m really hoping this doesn’t go ignored.
quote


tldr
gg wp


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BEERS FOR FEARS

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

Hey, thank you for making an intelligent post. I'm sorry that there are people who are telling people to "grow up" about it. Maybe they need to start realizing things.
You bring up excellent points and it's unfortunate people ignore it because there are so many of them and go "lol tl;dr". People really don't want to accept that there ARE some problems in how everyone is portrayed. And if you think it doesn't affect anything, it does. We live in a world where we are constantly surrounded by so many depictions of men and so little of women, and telling women they need to "suck it up" is stupid. I mean ****, I'm a dude and I'm tired of seeing it.
It's unfortunate people are told to shut up about oversexualization when it's such a ****ing problem.
I don't give two ****s if it's "A FANTASY GAME OMG RELAX". This opens up so many opportunities, doesn't it? Like for god's sake, we could do with some variety.
For the other guys out there who disagree and say really stupid **** in reply to this, sincerely hope you aren't anywhere near women. I'd hate to see how you treat them irl if you can't go "wow, tou know what? I like these designs but I agree they need some work."
People are mad at the sexualization of males which honestly is not that big of a deal. Women are CONSTANTLY sexualized, and sexualized men are pretty rare. It's not the same thing, sorry.


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Hardbuttpounding

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Can we stop these threads for god sakes?

It's a FANTASY GAME. There's a reason the females look like goddesses and the males look like Greek gods. People will generally want to be in a FANTASY where they're what the general populace calls attractive.

I know someone is going to bring up Gragas against me, but look at what Zileas said about him in the Spider Queen thread. He isn't attractive and that's why he wasn't played in times ago.

Can everyone kindly shut up over sexualization? It's getting as old as Zilean.

(P.S I disagree with your age associations, as you don't seem to factor in hair and history properly.)


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isawbones

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrild View Post
I have been playing this game for several years now, and have several thousand matches played. While I have never stated directly or indirectly what my gender is, my name could probably be considered by most people as feminine.

I don't recall a single case of someone making a comment about me being female, neither in the forums nor in the game. Then again, I do try to chat as little as possible in game (for unrelated reasons), so that might have an influence on it.

Yes, video games cater to the male population and no, big ripped off badass looking guys don't cater to the female population at all. You could make the exact same argument about superhero comics, or boxing, or whatever else. The point is, this is nothing new, and honestly, I doubt any company will risk alienating the majority of it's audience just to cater to a significantly smaller segment of it.
i agree with what your saying but then Pheak shouldn't say anything about wanting more female players. but we all know pheak will just be pheak so i give up


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Kazk Ironfist

Senior Member

10-06-2012

@OP
Very nice post. I am glad to see more people in the community raising this issue. I am, however, jealous of your patience and drive in writing something like this. Assuming you were writing this just before posting, I was napping while you were taking an effort to help Riot.

@Community
I see a lot less trolling and poor arguments than I usually do on threads like this. I think I ought to apologize for making harsh generalizations about the community at large.

@Riot.
I am glad to hear that this is getting discussed there at Riot. I have to say that I have been disheartened when I see a red try and dismiss the problem, but hearing that it is getting talked about gives me hope. Along with the OP, I would be very happy to see League of Legends be a place where anyone feels welcome. Sadly I can't say that it is yet. It may seem strange to some of you, especially when other game companies are doing the same thing. Seeing a lot of young women be turned away from games because problems like this make me really jaded, sometimes enough to think that games just aren't worth it, that I would be happier taking my degree elsewhere, that I should try working in an industry that will grow into something great, go somewhere incredible. But most days, it hurts to think I have ever even said something so insulting about the medium I decided to dedicate my working life to. When I see friends of mine uncomfortable with being a part of something they could have loved, I cant help but feel disheartened. I think about how deeply economically entrenched the gaming world is on focusing intently on its current core audience, it is not like any game company can just up and change things like that.

But you aren't just any game company are you? No. You are not. You went and made the most played PC game in the world, growing from a start up, to a giant without peers. As much as you can try and be humble, that is your doing. Yes the players pay the bills and make the game work, but millions of people don't just decide to come together without reason, and League of Legends was a good enough reason for millions. You are worthy of the respect and power you have. You have earned it. What is to stop you from turning back those who turned away? Habit? Old industry trends? I don't believe those could stop you. The recent honor system is meant to find the pillars of the League of Legends community, who make others feel welcome, who help it grow. Be a pillar of the game community at large, be the one to hold up on high the ideal of inclusivity. You will forever be remembered for it and clear the way for others to also do the right thing. They may not be as strong or as powerful, but they will have it easier, for they will be following the footsteps of giants.