@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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StunnedandSlayed

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by chumbler View Post
+1 There are a lot of people in this thread showing that they are truly worthless human beings.
Thinking you are above other people makes you just as much trash.


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Jetrel61

Member

10-06-2012

"So does ignorance."

says the one rationalizing poor behavior.


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Krejdar

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendaryLemur View Post
Why would you antagonize them just after you completely shut them down?
That whooshing sound you just heard? That was him completely missing the point of his own post.


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Krejdar

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetrel61 View Post
"So does ignorance."

says the one rationalizing poor behavior.
Hmm, let's see. I cop flak when people figure out I'm a girl in game. But yeah, I condone it, you ******. Please, read ALL the posts before you jump to such an ignorant conclusion.

Cheers.


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goblintwo

Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
The following are male champions that people use as examples of sexualized men. They may show skin, but being shirtless means nothing when they are morbidly obese or freakishly muscular. Female body builders are nasty. Male body builders are also nasty.
Are you high? Men have been portrayed as muscular for literally centuries because it is aesthetically pleasing as opposed to not being muscular.

This concept that if there are muscular men there need to be muscular women or vice versa is derived from political correctness.

There is nothing wrong with portraying men as masculine and portraying women as feminine.

You're very wrong on so many levels. Most girls don't even play male champions. You can identify almost any girl in the game because they tend to play female champions. You have an incorrect view of what potentially attracts women to video games. I'll give you a hint: it isn't ***.


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Sarah Lee

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Well done OP, you summed up my concerns about the way Riot designs its female characters very well, and explained it far better than I could have done. It's great to see so many people supporting you in this thread, and I hope that Riot will post here. Unfortunately there have been a lot of ignorant comments as well.

My summoner name makes it pretty clear that I'm a girl, and while harassment in game isn't a big problem for me, I do get it occasionally, and more often I just have people making a big deal about me being a girl or being really surprised that I play this game. I didn't really think that much about making my summoner name feminine, it was just one of the first things that came to mind, and I don't try to make a big deal about my gender but I suppose it's nice to have people use the correct pronouns for you rather than just assume you're a guy.

What I have found interesting about a lot of the comments here is how dismissive some people are about this problem. Sexism is widespread in the gaming industry and it's something we should think about and acknowledge, not just flat out deny. A lot of people have assumed that the OP is a woman simply because he has these concerns, as if the only people who care about feminism and gender equality are "whiny" girls. Also there have been a few girl gamers specifically commenting that they don't see a problem here. This shows that men are not the only ones who can be dismissive of gender concerns. Often in a male dominated environment it can be appealing for women to side with the majority and not take issue with what's going on. It's as if they're trying to say, well I'm a girl, so I have authority on the topic, and I don't see a problem here, so therefore there can't be a problem.

While I'm not saying that the way characters are designed in this game is something that everyone should be getting up in arms about, I do think it's something we should discuss and that people should acknowledge that some might object to it, for legitimate reasons.

Much like the OP, I don't have a problem with sexy female characters, expecially when it fits with their personality (for example Ahri and Miss Fortune). I do have a problem with the homogenaety of female characters and the fact that so many of them are sexualized, if not in their classic look in a skin. I really like Diana, Vayne and Riven because their classic skins make them look pretty baddass, and they aren't just like fighting **** toys. But they each have a skin that makes you think of *** as soon as you look at it, despite the fact that this characterization doesn't really suit them or their lore.

I just think it would be great if Riot introduced a little more variety in terms of female body types and personalities. The male characters are far more diverse. The OP breaks this down very well. Why is it that we can have old male characters like Corki and Zilean, and a range of body types, but all the female characters absolutely have to be young and beautiful? If nothing else, this makes the game less diverse than it could be, and limits the possibilities of female characterization.

Edit: Also, I think that the OP was correct in identifying Varus as the only sexualized male champion. While many others are muscular and/or attractive, they are not designed in a way that makes you think of *** as soon as you see them. Their muscles are a sign of their physical strength and power, not simply an aesthetic feature. Most women prefer men who are muscular, but not to the extremes of, say, Tryndamere.


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madjai

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLurch View Post
Thinking you are above other people makes you just as much trash.
BOOM. +1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetrel61 View Post
"So does ignorance."

says the one rationalizing poor behavior.
Oh I can play this game too!

Says the one trying to justify stupidity in online gaming and anonymity. Really dude? Really? If you're that deluded you can climb back under your rock lol.


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xStrawberryKitty

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by madjai View Post
The simple of it is, you are enabling others to know that you're a girl. You are putting yourself on show. Just like any other summoner is putting themself on show when they speak in chat.

I put myself on show when I get annoyed at people for playing badly after I try to coach them correctly.
I put myself on show when I get frustrated at idiots that are too busy having conversations in chat rather than playing the game in the first place. (Go talk about your day on facebook yo!)

But above all things, I put myself on show when I play League of Legends, as a Summoner, that is judged by my peers on a Tribunal and granted honor by my peers ("peers" being players) as a result of my good actions.



As for you, when you're done fence-sitting and trying to be a mediator, why don't you grow some metaphoric balls and post a coherent statement?
I understand, however I still think that it shouldn't matter if I'm a girl or not. I shouldn't have to hide it, and no that doesn't mean I'm going to announce it either. Since now I have to specify, I don't want to be treated above any other player in game either.
I want to be able to type in chat "Good job, Kayla!" without it being an issue.


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Krejdar

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IchigoKitty View Post
I understand, however I still think that it shouldn't matter if I'm a girl or not. I shouldn't have to hide it, and no that doesn't mean I'm going to announce it either. Since now I have to specify, I don't want to be treated above any other player in game either.
I want to be able to type in chat "Good job, Kayla!" without it being an issue.
Seriously, what part of 'THIS IS THE INTERNET' do you not comprehend? The internet is 99% Troll. No matter who you are, you are going to cop it for one reason or another. The only way to avoid this is to say as little as possible to give anyone any fuel to attack you. People are immature, especially on the internet where they can hide. THIS WILL NEVER CHANGE.


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Hype Algerian

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

I thought the day would never come when I would have to make an utterly gigantic post in a gaming forum but it seems that the thread more than demands it.

For starters, I will address your post point by point.

Quote:
So I was watching the quarterfinals today, and they did a segment on Alex Ich. Alex talked about how he is one of the few gamers who is married, when inspired a rather odd comment from Phreak. “More girls should play League of Legends.” I found it odd, because the LoL community isn’t always the most welcoming. I know of plenty of girls that do play, and they choose a gender neutral summoner name because of the grief they receive for making their gender known. I know of even more girls that choose not to play LoL at all because they don’t feel welcome.

One of my best friends is a girl gamer. She does play LoL, but only when playing with her boyfriend and myself. She feels marginalized by the LoL community, and Riot endorses this attitude indirectly. Whenever gender issues are brought up in these forums, there is a huge backlash. It’s almost as if gamers are threatened by this topic. They don’t want them womenfolk to change their games to make them more inclusive. They like that Riot caters to the majority (straight white male). Any time someone makes a perfectly valid point about sexism, they are met with massive downvotes and malicious comments.
How has Riot endorsed this attitude? While I’ve never witnessed a Riot take part in burning these feminists at the stake, they do dismiss these topics. I made a post about how human female champions are treated differently than human male champions, and Morello pointed out that I ignored counterexamples like Lulu, Tryndamere, Riven, etc. and therefore my point was invalid. I attempted to reengage Morello in conversation, but it he had moved on to other questions. Meanwhile, I’ve seen two threads this week mocking the entire conversation, each attracted three red posts joining in. These threads claimed that Pentakill Olaf and Gragas over-sexualize the male gender, and has caused the poster to be insecure with his body.
Yes, I know. Every dude knows. Many of the guys who were behind the 'internet culture' are actually boys/men. There has always been sexism/hostility towards the feminine populace and that's not just in the internet. If we are to take any examples... save for the contemporary era in some developed countries, many women are still fighting to earn rights. Internet is somewhat like that for now and someday a change will occur, but women have to be willing to take a crude stance and fight it out.

The dilemma is not just about Riot Games or anything. It's about the targeted demographics. Let's put it this way: The vocal members of the internet community/culture are mostly men. I'm saying vocal, not "the totality". When women will let their voice be heard, things will change. For now, though, they need to form a cohesive unit (just like these mysoginistic fellows you could meet in gaming communities do) to be able to create a balance. Don't expect the voice of one woman to be heard in front of the united voice of over 9000 guys. Do notice, though, that some of us are too damn sweet.

Do note, also, that while some women are not fond of some sexualization, some others... are. I personally know a woman who finds some of the portrayed women rather alluring - though some she found were downright degrading. Likewise, men would find that Gragas is utterly degrading (or a laughing stock) while, say, Malzahar seems to be sorta sexualized - if not for the fact that he's all business. Then again, say, what entices a woman to flip the "on" switch? I'm not sure eye-candy is really the answer, but feel free to correct me if it is.

I will agree, though, on the fact that League desperately needs a bunch of clothed women in the place.

Quote:
[HUGE FEEDBACK THAT I WON'T QUOTE BECAUSE OF ITS EPIC SIZE]
Now, Varus made the sexy list because he has an attractive physique, and his nakedness doesn’t seem to serve any apparent function other than fanservice. Still, he is the only example I could find that meets these requirements. That is one male champion out of 28. That means 3.5% of male champions are sexualized, and 78.5% of female champions are sexualized. How can you tell me that there is no disparity? That everything is fine. How can you deny the fact that women are treated differently?

Moving on, let’s talk about body types. I won’t devote too much time to this, because there isn’t much to say, but when you look at the guys, you have skinny Shaco, bulky Tryndamere, obese Gragas, Athletic Talon, and everything inbetween. Female champions range from super model thin to anorexic supermodel. You can see Morgana’s rib cage. There really is only one body type that gets recycled with every female champion. Bust sizes may vary from moderately large and “you’ve got to be kidding me,” but the frame of the ladies is indistinguishable.
A vocal lady is a start! You gotta rile other ladies up. I'll be blunt here (I'm actually a feminist by nature but I won't hide the sun in a sieve) and I want you to answer to the question I will ask you without feeling hurt:

What is the targeted demographics of this game? [Hint: It's the gaming community in the Internet. Given how men are the most vocal ones in the Internet, I'll let you make deductions.]

Now is the time to raise hell. Rile all the women around you, just go "What SHOULD the targeted demographics of this game be?". Be vocal to Riot games as a cohesive unit, ladies, and I'm pretty sure Riot will gladly oblige in making non-sexualized skins for their female champions, on top of eye candy for the ladies.

Now comes the point, though, when I will do a counter-argumentation. It will be blunt, it will be hurtful probably... but it is meant as a different view of things.

===============================================

1) I am pretty sure that Riot Games has made content that goes opposite to oversexualizing their lady champions.
- Silverfang Akali looks more like a badass ninja who's out to gut you. I mean, look at that intense look on her face!
- I would say Sherwood Ashe. Focus goes primarly on her facial expression and posture.
- Queen Ashe. Enough said.
- Arctic Warfare Caitlyn looks like a hunter.
- Diana's default skin. She's mostly business. I don't care if her Valkyrie skin changes her outlook, she still stays mostly business. She has a strong personality.
- Nightblade, Infiltrator and Aviator Irelia. Her default skin does let some skin show up, though.
- Karma and all of her skins.
- Kayle and all of her skins.
- Leona and her skins (exception made of Valkyrie). The high heels are not functional, I admit, but it's obvious that her sexuality is NOT the focal point.
- Lux's old splash art (and ingame skin) + Spellthief Lux.
- Morgana is too thin to be attractive in my opinion. Anorexic ladies never had much success with gentlemen. Though, I will admit that her blackthorn skin looks... rather enticing.
- Riven (exception made of Battle Bunny Riven - and hey, I'll come back to it later )
- Divine Soraka.
- Vayne (+ Vindicator and Aristocrat skins)
Sure, they could do more but it's a decent start already.

2) Saying that men look for how enticing a female character is to motivate picking them is downgrading men to animals. You somewhat fell into that trap and we feel very, very offended. I know we men are weird but when playing games we're far more preoccupied about the functionality of the character RATHER THAN their looks. If I were obsessed by looks, I'd be personally picking Mid AP Janna all the time regardless of being countered. However, I happen to not be fond of Janna (yes, I find her looks to be exagerately nude and that somewhat disturbs me).

3) Sometimes, we like to mess with things for the heck of it. Battle Bunny Riven (also known as Bunnygirl Riven) was an idea by Shaella (who I suspect is a girl) and the community embraced it for how funny it was. Not for how overly sexualizing it was. I personally embraced the concept because seeing Riven in a bunny outfit hopping around with a carrot sword was like... having a peak at Lulu's mind. As in, it is completely random. Fantastically humorous.

4) These characters are virtual. However, different things stand out for different characters. Diana's story appealed to lots of people and despite her not being overly sexualized she's been extremely popular. Soraka's old lore appealed to a lot of people, me included. Akali is a hot ninja chick who will kill you (aka don't mess with her). There are many ways to connect with a persona that are not limited to how they look.

5) What appeals to some people doesn't appeal to others. I know a girl who calls Nocturne and Skarner her "babies" (while for many women out there, Teemo is their plushie). Personally, I find Karthus to be a total badass. Nikasaur (a Rioter) is known for being fond of her absolutely cute Kog'maw. Then again, many League players **** bricks when Rammus (because... ok), Mordekaiser (HUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUE), Gangplank (eat an orange, be k), Hecarim (My Little Pony~) and Mundo (MUNDO!) are involved (also, yes, these are examples). Targeted demographics play a huge role and Riot has made a huge effort to find something that fits a category.

6) This point has no summary, I'm afraid, but let's try to put an example instead. If anything, I said that if Blackthorn Morgana was for real my jaws would drop. Then again, she's not real and it's just fine. Just like Varus for you... I mean, imagine if Varus ditched his bow and arrow just to deliver breakfast to you a moment after you wake up... Wouldn't you just swoon? (and yet, we both know that you wouldn't - you'd feel utterly weirded out by such a display). I think you get my point :3

7) Don't forget that some of the gamers are frustrated gentlemen Okay, I'm gonna get downvoted to hell if I don't remind them of that hot yet unapproachable girl in high-school/college/at work that they never dared to approach or who rejected their advances and stuff blahdablah overly cliche stuff. The problem is, they're en masse >.<

8) You might think that being a woman gamer is important. The truth is, we'll act towards you in either of these ways:
a- omg woman pokemon <3! (the heart doesn't mean we're creepy... just that we <3 pokemons - and that we all are pokemons anyway)
b- go make me sammich (by the way, we don't seriously mean it, it's a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge joke)
c- oh lord, she's trying to make a big deal out of being a giiiirl gamer. We're GAMERS GODDAMNIT! NOTHING SPECIAL!
Well, of course, C is expressed in such an awkward way that it looks downright mysoginistic. B is mostly meant as a joke (and only true a$$holes would seriously mean it - or immatures, let them grow up).
d- OMG WOMAN GAMER I WANNA GET LAID WITH HER; okay, now is the time to just ignore this creeper. Fshhhhhhhhhhhhh-
===========================================

All in all, I hope you understand my point even though I went everywhere and nowhere at once.
It's partly about making the se.x disparity nil, sure... But it's also about having fun and just ditching whatever sexual references aside and having a good time playing a game.


However... I really want to see a bundle of skins/champions aimed for the ladies... gotta get some eye candy anyway eh? I mean, that Blackthorn Morgana art... (synonymous to 'that Varus art...' for you)