@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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Faeces

Senior Member

10-22-2012

bewbz


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Zeratoth

Member

10-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
Zyra...well, whatever, hamadryad myths, I can deal with that.

Syndra? That belted-on pushup/thong...thing? Bleh.
why is it a Bleh? i think it looks excellent.


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Felie

Senior Member

10-22-2012

Gender is irrelevant to the playing of this game. When does whether or not the player is a female ever affect the outcome of the game? Just like how you wouldn't go into a game and say "hi guys, I'm a boy", girls sure as hell aren't going to go into a game and start off by saying "Hi guys, I'm a girl". Is isn't because girls feel uncomfortable in league (from what I've seen through experience anyways), but it's because gender is irrelevant. It's not as though females LIE when they're asked what gender they are, but rather that the discussion of gender just never happens unless you actually meet / get to know a particular player you added as a friend.

There is no reason for girls to make it obvious that they are female in the game. Just like how it's stupid to declare that you're a male... It makes absolutely no difference, and it SHOULDN'T make a difference.

Also, in my very honest opinion, it isn't the art that turns league of legends off for most girls. What makes league less popular to females is the same thing that makes call of duty, l4d2, WoW even to an extent, and many other games less popular.

Edit again:
Not to say the hypersexualization of females personified in league art isn't a problem (which in my opinion is not a top priority anyway), but it isn't the reason why more girls don't play.


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Fashbinder

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Senior Member

10-22-2012

I would like to see prostitute annie. Thanks.


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MathMage

Senior Member

10-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeratoth View Post
why is it a Bleh? i think it looks excellent.
De gustibus non disputandem est, I suppose.

But it's not really disputable that the cleavage window and minimal fabric are motivated by very particular fanservice considerations, rather than character considerations.


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Schizosoul

Junior Member

10-22-2012

I'm a female gamer. I really could care less about making the female characters look ****ty. But for God sakes, if you're gonna have a half naked woman fight battles at least give us some eye candy too! Ezreal and Varus are nice moar plz! Stripper Ez > Pulsefire. And Sexy Firefighter Graves doesn't sound bad either.

Remember Riot, GIRL'S LIKE TO ACCESSORIZE! Hawt male skins = moar money.


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Zeratoth

Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
De gustibus non disputandem est, I suppose.

But it's not really disputable that the cleavage window and minimal fabric are motivated by very particular fanservice considerations, rather than character considerations.
Dont you fancy latin at me boi! :P

and I COULD argue that. I know that as an Egomaniac I like to show off every way I can. Syndra's pretty clearly egomaniacal, so... *shrug*. But its only a possible justification, and certainly not given clear reason in her lore, so I suppose the point stands.


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Mughi of Ruckus

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Note: I started writing this up as its own thread when I noticed this thread. A lot of what I mention here has already been discussed, and I'm glad Rahuel made this thread and that the community didn't downvote it into oblivion. Let me say Rahuel that I largely agree, but now I don't have much of a reason to start my own thread...so I'll just post this here to add my voice. Also, I'm on my 20th draft or so of this thing, so fsck it. I'm just posting it as-is. I have some fanfaction to finish.

TL;DR: Sexualizing a champion isn't always a good idea, but it's not inherently a bad thing, either. There are different ways to make a female champion look sexy: Broke back poses = Terrible and Ridiculous. Battle Bikini = Bad in general, as the default skin worse. Playboy bunny skin on character it doesn't fit that has splash art to explain it = better, but kind of wonky. Assertive fencer with a skin that shows a bit of cleavage with a pendent to draw your eye just so, an alluring smile and a flash of thigh = Now we're talking. Less is not always more. One size does not fit all. Personality counts. Not every champion should be sexualized.

So, I have an issue with the new splash arts for Lux and Morgana. Okay, that's kind of a lie. I have a problem with a wider issue they seem to represent. First, let me start with this: I both like and dislike them at the same time. I like the new splash arts because I think in most ways they're better drawn and colored than the old ones, I can't help but dislike them at the same time because of the one glaring way in which I think they're both worse: Their backs and their terrible, familiar impossibility. Backs only ever get drawn that way for one reason, and its benefits do not outweigh its ridiculousness. It's a look that reduces a woman to her parts to try to make her sexy. To the extent that it works, it works in the worst possible way. The severity of Morgana's brokeback, as the pose has come to be called, is frankly the reason I dislike her new splash art overall despite everything it does right. Similarly, while I like just about everything about Lux's new splash art, her back makes me shake my head every time I see it. Were it not for the brokeback pose the splash would be pretty much perfect. I know the idea was probably it hurts nothing while adding a bit of fan service, but it hurts the look of the art as a whole, and that's not the only side effect, either.

It's easy to not understand or miss completely the effect these decisions have. As a guy I...well, let me explain it this way instead. I'm a pretty tall guy. For the most part, I never really notice others' heights. In my day to day life, it's really just not a big deal...well, not any sort of deal at all, really. This changes on those rare occasions I come across someone noticeably taller than me. Then, suddenly, I notice the difference in height. Clearly there is a part of my brain processing height information all the time, but as a tall person, I'm never consciously aware of it until I come across someone taller, and suddenly, my brain can relate to me why a difference in height can significantly affect your perception of someone.

I think this is pretty similar. If you see a generally non-sexualized character like Lux whose defining traits are her optimism, light magic and her brilliance and then see her main splash art changed to one that gives emphasis to her breasts and her butt at the expense of her plausibility, it sends a message about what is important for her character. For some people, there's nothing to see. For others this message is clear and sharp. for others, this message extends to women as a whole. I don't mean to suggest it says her sexuality is the only thing that's important. Rather, I suggest it says her other traits are insufficient, and it is important that she is not only sexualized too, but sexualized in a very specific way. You may not mean it to, you may not realize it, but it does say this, and not only to women. The other day when starting a match, I picked Morgana as my champion, and one of the other summoners said, and I paraphrase, "I love how her new splash makes her look like a *** doll." That right there represents the change in perception toward her character that is the specific result of the new splash art: It's doesn't create a "something for everyone" situation. It creates a situation where Morgana is taken less seriously as a character and more seriously as a *** object. I know there will always be people who look at female champions this way no matter what is done, bit I think it's worth noting that character identity and sexuality are not necessarily mutually exclusive. There are good and bad ways to try to make a woman look sexy, and the reason this splash has this affect is because of what it emphasizes and how, but shifting how sexiness is depicted can change the response significantly.

To start, all sexiness does not look alike. Quick exercises for illustration: Which is sexier, a Sports Illustrated swimsuit shoot or a Dita von Teese photo shoot?" A woman in a tube top and shorts or a woman in a little black dress? A woman standing with her back twisted to show off her body; a woman standing straight looking right into your eyes, her eyes slightly crinkled and a faint smile on her painted lips; or a woman leaning slightly back, one foot behind he other and biting her lower lip? I would be surprised if you could come up with answers that were in any way empirical and not subjective. There are variations in sexiness that are largely absent in your designs. This is important for reasons that don't involve more effectively titillating all segments of your fan base. It's important because women know this, and when a woman takes the effort to look sexy she generally does so in a way that is reflective of her personal style.

For example, if you asked me what Vayne would dress like when she wanted to look sexy and had I never seen the Heartseeker skin, I would have imagined a somewhat Victorian-inspired look. Petticoats may or may not have been involved. What I would not have imagined is bright pink and red and white, clean lines, maximum skin exposure, angel wings and hearts. I'm not saying it's a bad skin for what it's intended to be, and I understand why you made it the way you did, but it doesn't quite fit with how she's otherwise portrayed. (It does mean we should have gotten a cupid Varus too, though. :P) It prioritizes imposing an idea of sexiness over what her character would have considered sexy. Similarly, if I had been asked the same question about Caitlyn...well...putting her in a stripper's version of a sheriff's uniform sounds like something an evil villain would do to mock her. Her wearing a dominatrix-influenced take of an actual sheriff's uniform I can maybe see. Maybe a sheriff's uniform slightly undone in just the right ways. A stripper version? Not so much. Finally, if you asked me about Riven, Battle Bunny would not have been my guess. Not because it's a bad way of making her sexy, but because it seems to have no connection to her at all. I'll grant that this was a player-designed skin, that it's probably equal parts camp and humor as well given the iconic nature of the costume, and that the splash does make it look like she only dressed that way to infiltrate somewhere and put the hurt on someone who needed hurtin', but that's a lot of caveats to make putting her in a bunny suit reasonable. I'll also grant that not every skin needs to be steeped in lore. There's room for goofy, random, sexy, etc skins. Still, lack of connection is currently not the exception, but the rule. Still, I will count battle bunny as, "not bad." I will probably buy it if it ever goes on sale.

In summary my concern is the shape of the sexualization of many female champions is identical and defined more by application of a single standard frequently involving random male fantasies/fetishes than any sense of the character's identity and is applied in a number of places where it is not appropriate. I would have fewer issues with Morgana being sexualized if her sexualization involved a separate skin with her decked out in gothic veils and torn lace rather than brokebacking her default splash. So come on, Riot, fixing this will only titillate more people more effectively.

Okay, and while taking some time between writing and editing this, I saw Headmistress Fiora for the first time. I have to say that does look very much along the lines of how I imagine a sexy Fiora would dress and does not rely on simply showing more skin. It isn't perfect. It raises the obvious question of why the only woman in a harrowing costume is also the only champion being sexualized in costume, but that's sadly a larger issue with Halloween costumes for women in real life. (This is one of the reasons I'm so fond of http://takebackhalloween.org/, which I have no affiliation with. Still, you artists should check it out for inspiration via some solid designs for women) I wish the boob window was subtler and not such a dramatic contrast to the rest of the outfit. You have rolled up sleeves, a flash of thigh, a pendant hanging just so, all of which are subtle, precise stabs as someone's libido. Then you have an enormous boob window. Sadly, though, the boob window is very similar in size to the ones in her other alternate skins and not really specific to this costume, but I do wish it were subtler. Still, this is very much along the lines of what I meant. Also, hot damn!

Note: I was once told by a, athletic, well-endowed female friend that for active women with large breasts, it's less of a window and more of a vent, so I've come to see them as not necessarily gratuitous. If this is not correct and she was just teasing me, someone please let me know.

So there you have it. My two cents...or fifty dollars, but the TL;DR is there for you if two cents is all you want. Regardless, thank you for reading if you did, and thank you for the work and progress you've been making. A special shout-out as regards this to Iron Stylus, who is the best.

Demographic note: Straight, young adult male who bought and adores the design on Championship Riven's armor despite some minor issues and bought Diana more or less immediately in large part over appreciation of her concept and design but who also hopes the Octoberfest Beer Maid Sona Skin gets made. Oh, and who totally plans to buy Headmistress Fiora once she's available now that he's seen her. I mean, hot damn! Current favorite skin: Arcade Sona


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MathMage

Senior Member

10-23-2012

And Mughi of Ruckus hits the nail through the head straight to the frickin' moon. Well done, sir.


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PurpleBlitz

Senior Member

10-23-2012

I had a long rant about how men should be allowed to complain about all male champs looking good, but my internet died and i lost it. Bottom line- i agree with you from an artistic point of view however, there is no battle practicality or varus being shirtless. i feel that both female and male champs look good and are eye pleasing.i do not understand why anyone dislikes sexy champs i'm more than happy that 90% of male champs are muscle bound or charming or handsome. tohugh i agree there needs to be some sexy skins for females like rugged garen.

P.S. save yourself the pain, art team, and just do void champs from now on, nothign more awesome and feminest/ masculist pleasing than kog'maw, cho' gath and kha'zix