@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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SufferNot

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Senior Member

10-10-2012

I can't believe I wasted my weekend trying to watch the semifinals instead of commenting in this thread. Ah well, c'est la vie. Since a lot of what I wanted to discuss has already been mentioned, I'll just try to hit some points that stuck out to me.

In the OP, skins get used as part of his argument, but we can't really include the alternative and non-canon parts of their design as making a statement on their character unless those skins become canon for whatever reason.French Maid Nidalee does not 'exist' and because of this you can't use that skin in an argument that she is over sexualized. You can say that the skin is over sexualized, and you can say that Nidalee is over sexualized for other reasons (like her dance being a pole dance), but I would argue against using non-canon material in the conversation.

Except for Shyvana, because IronScale is the only skin she should ever been seen in.


While I agree with most of the character analysis in the OP, I don't agree with all of it. Many of the champions have specific design reasons for dressing the way they do that have to do with their personality or other elements of their lore.

For example, Sivir is an extremely successful and filthy rich mercenary who retires during the war between Noxus and Ionia and joins the League. She's an extremely self centered and cocky individual with a lot of self confidence and disdain for weakness in other people. Her outfit is extremely gaudy and draws attention to herself because that is what she wants; she knows that the League battles are broadcast all around the world and she wants that attention. She doesn't need protection since you don't die in League matches, so she opts for something flashy instead. Having fought real battles, she treats the League as fun rather than work. I don't have any problem with the overall design of her classic outfit because it makes sense for her character. I do have a problem with her model and texture since they're kind of hideous, but that's a different discussion.

Fiora's problem is that she has a great design up until her splash art, at which point she was too busy to have her picture taken and instead hired a stripper to dress up like her and strike whatever pose she felt like. Her splash art acts like a completely separate character from the one we expect from her lore. Compare her original splash to the Chinese one where she is holding a fencing pose.

You call out Janna as being sexualized because of her joke. However, she's...telling a joke. It's not like her normal lines are all implying she works as an adult entertainer. She doesn't really do anything sexual up until she is asked to try and say something funny, and then the best she can come up with is self deprecation. It's not her fault that her sense of humor while on the battlefield is so shallow.
...
Is what I would say, if I did not think that your line when referencing her was also a joke in and of itself. now I am trapped in a meta-referencing joke conundrum.

I've been on the fence about Lux's splash art change for the longest time. On the one hand, I like that it gives her a lot more energy. Her old splash didn't really capture that about her at all. On the other, her pose is both impractical and pretty sexual. However, the more I look at it the more I think that the only reason I am finding it to be sexual is because of the broken spine. If she were arranged in a manner that was more anatomically correct I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Concerning the Frejlordians (or whatever you would call Ashe, Trynd, and Sejuani), I totally agree with everyone that the idea that they would run around their ice country with so much expose skin is completely silly. However, the fields of battle do not happen to be anywhere near Frejlord. So I can't really fault them for choosing to wear something slightly less warm. For the two barbarians, I find it fitting that their solution to the climate change was basically to just wear less until they were more comfortable. It's an elegant solution to their problem. Ashe always struck me as being both more sophisticated and more political than her peers, so again it makes sense to me that her character would choose something more practical to her position as an ambassador.

Concerning Soraka, her art and model design are really really good fits for her new character design. Old Soraka's major character point was that her arrogance and lack of self control led to her perverting her powers in an attempt to curse Warwick. This foolishness led to her losing most of her powers and becoming colorblind (hence her wearing that abomination to the concepts of visual design). However, Soraka's new lore makes her a victim of betrayal. Her innocence and naivety led her to trust a sinister villain who then stole blood from her. Soraka's visual design places emphasis on this child-like innocence by making her look youthful in appearance, while old Sroaka's visual design made her look old and resentful. Both fit the character quite nicely; the only difference is that new Soraka has better 3d modeling and texturing and her fall from grace was not her own fault. I don't have any problems with any parts of her design besides that she seems way too tall compared to other people.

Concerning Riven's bunny skin, it's probably my favorite "sexualized" skin because it offers fanservice while staying without changing a character's design. If you look at the splash art for the skin and then look at stuff besides Riven, she's clearly smashing the place apart to the considerable surprise of the people around her. Urgot and Talon are rushing to grab their weapons in order to fight her, Swain's bird is in a defensive position, and her facial expression is one of anger and determination. it paints the story that Riven's entire purpose for being where she is dressed in that way is to cut someone in half with her giant sword. "I may not approve of this situation, but I can at least use it to accomplish my goals". I don't have any problems with that splash art at all and my only problem with the skin is that Riven's sword doesn't turn into a giant carrot.


Alright, and now I'm going to ***** at you. Because this sort of behavior rustles my jimmies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
• Sona’s boobs. Need I say more?
You make such a good post talking about the inconsistencies between splash arts and cahracter designs and about how a character's pose can imply so much about them and then you get to Sona and your response is "lol she has big bewbs."
So then, let's look at Sona. Does she show a lot of skin? She's in a full length strapless gown. The only thing she really exposes is her shoulders and some cleavage. She's not showing off her midriff or her legs or parts of her hips or anything else, it's just her shoulders and collar bone.
What about her pose in her splash art? Is she contorting her figure? Is she shoving body parts in anyone's face? Is she sticking her ass out and wiggling it? No, she's standing there playing her instrument.
Alright, well how about her dialogue? Does she ever say anything sexual? No, of course not, she's mute. But does she think anything sexual that the player is clued into through telepathy? No, all she thinks about is her job and all her dialogue is various musical terms.

So, she's not wearing anything sexual, she's not doing anything sexual, and she's not saying anything sexual, but she still is used as an example of a sexualized female champion because she has big breasts. It bothers me that a women can have big breasts and then do nothing sexual and still be "sexual" while a man can have big muscles and do nothing sexual and he gets to be "wish fulfillment".

I'm aware that a significant portion of this community is going to see any form of breasts or ass as fanservice. I'm pretty sure there is a post from less than an hour ago that pretty much says "I really enjoy logging into this game and being surrounded by women with large breasts". But I don't feel like it's useful to the conversation to claim that presence of beauty equates to sexualization. Characters like Sona, Karma, Soraka, and to a lesser extent Irelia, Janna, Morgana, Lux, and a few others are all cases where they aren't acting in a sexualized manner but still get labeled as such because they have attractive bodies. I don't have a problem with a few characters having attractive bodies, I have problems with character having either poor or inconsistent design. Sona/Soraka/Janna/etc all have excellent design that is consistent with their lore. Zyra/Caitlyn/Syndra all have poor visual design while Vayne/Fiora/Akali have visual designs that are inconsistent with their character desings.


Alright, now that that is off my chest...

When it comes down to it, what I am most looking for is quality and consistency. I feel like we have a lot of diversity already, but that said diversity ends up turning into 'safe' visual design. And I can understand that from a business perspective Riot would make more money from having a female spider champion being a Quelaag "half woman half spider" rather than a Broodmother "it's a giant scary spider with a woman's voice". Which is partly the responsibility of the player base. I'm just glad that there are people like the Op and others who are willing to speak out and say that Riot shouldn't be afraid to try new things.


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Mirana Arashi

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Senior Member

10-10-2012

I need more sexy male champions/sexy skins , please IronStylus


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Nightmanflock

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Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Well, this thread is a bit hard for me to track as of now. It's going to get harder and harder to wade through the posts and find nuggets I can pick apart and explain. I think I've pretty much said what I've needed to say but as always I could go further. I'm going to see if I can find a venue to get some of our philosophy out into the world. This is something that might take a little time as departments sometimes need to come to alignment first. I know action speaks louder than words however, and that we will and should be judged by the content we release.

One of the cool things about this discussion as a whole, and this thread in particular, is that it allowed me to provide enough visibility inside the art department that our art director was able to check it out. He hasn't been around for too long. He's new and extremely awesome. He's open to a world of ideas but simultaneously knows what works and what doesn't in many different scenarios. He is very much about the variety thing. He is tasking us with exploring all sorts of avenues and challenge our approach to making female champions, and all champions really, and how we vary shape, age, coverage, cadence, etc.

All in all this has been extremely productive, and amazingly enough it was done with a lot of positivity. This topic wasn't drowned in a sea of downvotes. Indeed, there are a few people who put up the complaint of feminist saboteurs trying to undermine the art department, but what this really is, is about varied, fresh and lasting content.

In summation:

If we as content producers hope to keep producing content we must evolve and diversify. I will still maintain that we have a LOT of diversity in League of Legends. Could we have more? Absolutely. We're going to make plenty more champions, and we're going to push our limits. Yes, we may now and again float back to a place where things standardize for a while, but the hope is that even when we produce something archetypal is that it's fresh in it's own way and released in a cadence with possibly more experimental or unconventional characters.

We will be producing characters which push our silhouettes, not just costumes. We will be exploring characters that appeal to our female audience, we will visit the subject of diversity in shape, color, size, etc. My belief is that we do have a good handle on things. We have produced characters that last. We will take another look at characters we feel could use some updating. This will take time to work through the backlog an into release however, please be patient. This won't come in a torrent either, it will come in the form of hopefully a steady cadence which is refreshing each time. Will every character cater to everyone? No, nor should they. The job of our game is to create a world where everyone can identify with one or many characters, not a world where each character is appealing across the board. Some designs will enamor certain people, other designs might turn some people off. That's the nature of producing a rich world. Eliciting an emotion either way.

Any character content however is not produced to cater to a specific group. It is never the intention to appease or be reactionary. The motivation for any choice when developing a character is simply to do what's best for the character, to create a living fantasy which someone will latch onto. The creation of that fantasy alone dictates where we go from there. Luckily, fantasy comes in so many varied and wonderful forms. We are only limited to how much we may constrain ourselves.

We have so much to draw from and to create. A great start is always what comes from our community, what comes from threads like these. You should know that you do indeed have the power to shape what we release. We want to be clever just like you.
I think your artistic nature is showing with your speech now, mister Stylus. Hehe. That said, bravo on addessing this and in pushing to make it happen. I look forward to seeing what's in the works with the designs and how the diversification of the champion roster continues to grow. It's things like this that lead me to continue to buy RP to support the game in what little ways I can and advertise it to my friends. I've been on board with the issues the OP raised for as long as I've played this game, I think it was a little after the Nocturne patch, and I'm very glad to see that views have been opened up and that people like you and other devs are working to broaden the horizons of what we see in game and in splash art. My RP will be ready when these champions and skins hit, mark my words.

On a side note, you have a flair for some of my favorite champions bar none, Skarner Talon Viktor and Xerath being highly ranked among them. God I love that scorpion-creature.


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Firellius

Senior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkwing View Post
Their splash art highlights their masculinity and their physical prowess (bulging arms, pecs, naked in the cold, heroic stance, being a drummer, etc). And physical dominance, my dear, is sexy.
That's true, but most of the time they're being too busy with being badass to show off being sexy. There's no skins out there that are made purely for being sexy, like Candy Cane Miss Fortune is.

For example, I think that Farmhand Jarvan would be an amazing sexualised male skin. Overalls bulging, failing to cover up thick pecs, large shoulders and powerful arms. Right arm curved upwards, supporting a bale of hay, showing off great shoulder definition and a nice bicep flex. A bit of a naive look on his face, blissfully ignorant of the raw sexual power that he radiates that makes the player (female, gay or bi) think something along the lines of "I want to rip those overalls off his body and show him stuff he would never dream possible".

Spear and banner replaced with pitchforks and the cataclysm arena is now made out of bales of hay.

A solid, sexualised male skin, I think.

Also, remember to use the right artstyle. Lee Sin's art style has his body made out of wicker. Tryndamere's new splash art has clean, smooth skin over tight, powerful muscles. Above his chest belt, Varus is made out of paste. Below it, smooth skin over muscle.


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Vu Sugoi

Senior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
I take Freljord Ashe's splash art less seriously because it is portrayed as unserious. Her model doesn't have the same issue, so obviously that doesn't translate into the game itself.

Lux's splash is not just dynamic, but broken-backed.

Akali's sideboob is entirely gratuitous.


Just because MF has good overall design doesn't mean she has no problems whatsoever.

But by the same token, it doesn't mean fixing that problem requires a complete overhaul that ruins her design on other levels.
just because your perspective is narrow, and i say narrow because its like a man who see a average body type, petite not a threat until you attack her and she destroys your balls and gouge your eyes. That's just your perspective on how women who arent growling and grunting and swinging a big sword or menacing machine gunning arrows into someones eye socket not threatening.

Some people can be quite flexible so that makes lux interesting.


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Rippyman

Senior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Everborn View Post
this thread is silly =/ less girls play because they are less interested in games then males.. No matter what type of game.. Period.. Has 0 too do with their skins. The game is made by men for mostly men.. And the girls that don't play don't play because of the skins. Girls wear tight cloths in RL, this post suggesting more girls will play if you had eye candy for girls is silly... Do YOU play for the eye candy? No you play because you enjoy the game.
That's not really true anymore. Actually, nothing you've said is true. And even if it was, it doesn't actually negate our arguments. The fact that game is made "for men" (and by the way, it's not, for the most part, just in artistic design) is a problem. A lot of women play this game. You probably have an average of two to four in each game. If 90% male champion was half dressed and posed like they were in an abercrombie and fitch catalog you know everyone would freak. And I play for many reasons. I enjoy the game because it's fun, my friends play it, and it's visual style appeals to me. Right now their are barriers for women to enjoy all three of these aspects. This thread is addressing one of those barriers. So no, this thread is not silly. It's quite important.


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Vu Sugoi

Senior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTaur View Post
Being skinny makes you better at smashing things with a flail for reals, yo.
You're right. Some things just can't be strong when they look so frail. They should add spells to the game so you can cast on them to make them strong or allow them to imbued themselves with the strength of the gods. kind of like the greeks or other cultures who talk about these things because those people are crack jobs who live in a fantasy world, right?


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Shaella

Senior Member

10-10-2012

How is this **** still going

I don't understand how people can be against variety.


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Vu Sugoi

Senior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by APennyWorthwhile View Post
Buy a tablet, buy photoshop, go to LOLKING take a snap shot of every champion, trace over them (outline or silhouette), and tell me they are all the same.
there has to be similarities otherwise every champ would be an alien standing next to another alien.


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MTaur

Senior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwahn View Post
I dont see changing existing stuff as having enough upsides tbh, though making the supposedly wanted "diversity" would be fine with future champs imo.
They do change existing models, though. Old Soraka was different, but kind of badly done. New Soraka is polished, but now has the same age and body type as everyone else. They're ok with changing old models to make things less diverse.