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@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

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Hype Algerian

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Hype Algerian:
I thought the day would never come when I would have to make an utterly gigantic post in a gaming forum but it seems that the thread more than demands it.

For starters, I will address your post point by point.
Yes, I know. Every dude knows. Many of the guys who were behind the 'internet culture' are actually boys/men. There has always been sexism/hostility towards the feminine populace and that's not just in the internet. If we are to take any examples... save for the contemporary era in some developed countries, many women are still fighting to earn rights. Internet is somewhat like that for now and someday a change will occur, but women have to be willing to take a crude stance and fight it out.

The dilemma is not just about Riot Games or anything. It's about the targeted demographics. Let's put it this way: The vocal members of the internet community/culture are mostly men. I'm saying vocal, not "the totality". When women will let their voice be heard, things will change. For now, though, they need to form a cohesive unit (just like these mysoginistic fellows you could meet in gaming communities do) to be able to create a balance. Don't expect the voice of one woman to be heard in front of the united voice of over 9000 guys. Do notice, though, that some of us are too damn sweet.

Do note, also, that while some women are not fond of some sexualization, some others... are. I personally know a woman who finds some of the portrayed women rather alluring - though some she found were downright degrading. Likewise, men would find that Gragas is utterly degrading (or a laughing stock) while, say, Malzahar seems to be sorta sexualized - if not for the fact that he's all business. Then again, say, what entices a woman to flip the "on" switch? I'm not sure eye-candy is really the answer, but feel free to correct me if it is.

I will agree, though, on the fact that League desperately needs a bunch of clothed women in the place.

A vocal lady is a start! You gotta rile other ladies up. I'll be blunt here (I'm actually a feminist by nature but I won't hide the sun in a sieve) and I want you to answer to the question I will ask you without feeling hurt:

What is the targeted demographics of this game? [Hint: It's the gaming community in the Internet. Given how men are the most vocal ones in the Internet, I'll let you make deductions.]

Now is the time to raise hell. Rile all the women around you, just go "What SHOULD the targeted demographics of this game be?". Be vocal to Riot games as a cohesive unit, ladies, and I'm pretty sure Riot will gladly oblige in making non-sexualized skins for their female champions, on top of eye candy for the ladies.

Now comes the point, though, when I will do a counter-argumentation. It will be blunt, it will be hurtful probably... but it is meant as a different view of things.

===============================================

1) I am pretty sure that Riot Games has made content that goes opposite to oversexualizing their lady champions.
- Silverfang Akali looks more like a badass ninja who's out to gut you. I mean, look at that intense look on her face!
- I would say Sherwood Ashe. Focus goes primarly on her facial expression and posture.
- Queen Ashe. Enough said.
- Arctic Warfare Caitlyn looks like a hunter.
- Diana's default skin. She's mostly business. I don't care if her Valkyrie skin changes her outlook, she still stays mostly business. She has a strong personality.
- Nightblade, Infiltrator and Aviator Irelia. Her default skin does let some skin show up, though.
- Karma and all of her skins.
- Kayle and all of her skins.
- Leona and her skins (exception made of Valkyrie). The high heels are not functional, I admit, but it's obvious that her sexuality is NOT the focal point.
- Lux's old splash art (and ingame skin) + Spellthief Lux.
- Morgana is too thin to be attractive in my opinion. Anorexic ladies never had much success with gentlemen. Though, I will admit that her blackthorn skin looks... rather enticing.
- Riven (exception made of Battle Bunny Riven - and hey, I'll come back to it later )
- Divine Soraka.
- Vayne (+ Vindicator and Aristocrat skins)
Sure, they could do more but it's a decent start already.

2) Saying that men look for how enticing a female character is to motivate picking them is downgrading men to animals. You somewhat fell into that trap and we feel very, very offended. I know we men are weird but when playing games we're far more preoccupied about the functionality of the character RATHER THAN their looks. If I were obsessed by looks, I'd be personally picking Mid AP Janna all the time regardless of being countered. However, I happen to not be fond of Janna (yes, I find her looks to be exagerately nude and that somewhat disturbs me).

3) Sometimes, we like to mess with things for the heck of it. Battle Bunny Riven (also known as Bunnygirl Riven) was an idea by Shaella (who I suspect is a girl) and the community embraced it for how funny it was. Not for how overly sexualizing it was. I personally embraced the concept because seeing Riven in a bunny outfit hopping around with a carrot sword was like... having a peak at Lulu's mind. As in, it is completely random. Fantastically humorous.

4) These characters are virtual. However, different things stand out for different characters. Diana's story appealed to lots of people and despite her not being overly sexualized she's been extremely popular. Soraka's old lore appealed to a lot of people, me included. Akali is a hot ninja chick who will kill you (aka don't mess with her). There are many ways to connect with a persona that are not limited to how they look.

5) What appeals to some people doesn't appeal to others. I know a girl who calls Nocturne and Skarner her "babies" (while for many women out there, Teemo is their plushie). Personally, I find Karthus to be a total badass. Nikasaur (a Rioter) is known for being fond of her absolutely cute Kog'maw. Then again, many League players **** bricks when Rammus (because... ok), Mordekaiser (HUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUE), Gangplank (eat an orange, be k), Hecarim (My Little Pony~) and Mundo (MUNDO!) are involved (also, yes, these are examples). Targeted demographics play a huge role and Riot has made a huge effort to find something that fits a category.

6) This point has no summary, I'm afraid, but let's try to put an example instead. If anything, I said that if Blackthorn Morgana was for real my jaws would drop. Then again, she's not real and it's just fine. Just like Varus for you... I mean, imagine if Varus ditched his bow and arrow just to deliver breakfast to you a moment after you wake up... Wouldn't you just swoon? (and yet, we both know that you wouldn't - you'd feel utterly weirded out by such a display). I think you get my point :3

7) Don't forget that some of the gamers are frustrated gentlemen Okay, I'm gonna get downvoted to hell if I don't remind them of that hot yet unapproachable girl in high-school/college/at work that they never dared to approach or who rejected their advances and stuff blahdablah overly cliche stuff. The problem is, they're en masse >.<

8) You might think that being a woman gamer is important. The truth is, we'll act towards you in either of these ways:
a- omg woman pokemon <3! (the heart doesn't mean we're creepy... just that we <3 pokemons - and that we all are pokemons anyway)
b- go make me sammich (by the way, we don't seriously mean it, it's a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge joke)
c- oh lord, she's trying to make a big deal out of being a giiiirl gamer. We're GAMERS GODDAMNIT! NOTHING SPECIAL!
Well, of course, C is expressed in such an awkward way that it looks downright mysoginistic. B is mostly meant as a joke (and only true a$$holes would seriously mean it - or immatures, let them grow up).
d- OMG WOMAN GAMER I WANNA GET LAID WITH HER; okay, now is the time to just ignore this creeper. Fshhhhhhhhhhhhh-
===========================================

All in all, I hope you understand my point even though I went everywhere and nowhere at once.
It's partly about making the se.x disparity nil, sure... But it's also about having fun and just ditching whatever sexual references aside and having a good time playing a game.


However... I really want to see a bundle of skins/champions aimed for the ladies... gotta get some eye candy anyway eh? I mean, that Blackthorn Morgana art... (synonymous to 'that Varus art...' for you)

On top of this post, I took the time to revisit one of my older fan-concepts. I hope you guys will enjoy o.o http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2154482


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Injusto

Senior Member

10-08-2012

This is gonna get down voted, but I'm just tired of it.

I really don't think that when Riot gives us "non-sexy" female heroes will we get a large influx of gaming girls joining LoL. Sure we got over sexualized champs (Janna I'm looking at you) that are way overdone but saying that this is a mayor barrage for more girl gamers seems to me over simplified.

The main reason for the lack of females in LoL is way too complex:

  • Starting from our male centric culture (I mean only recently have we, as a culture, given women more political freedom and power and there are still places where women can't even vote)
  • The fact that for the infancy of our medium mostly "white nerd boys" played video games and used computers (talk about stereotypes)
  • We as a gaming community need to change our attitude towards gamer girls, LGBT and minorities
Surely there are many more reasons than these few ones but I don't want to tire you guys.

I mean, seriously, how many Hollywood blockbusters featuring a sexy actress have there been? Still those movies are watched and enjoyed by millions of women.

Now don't get me wrong I understand OP's main point. Yes for the most part LoL female champs are sexy girls in one way or the other, some of them with improbable physiques/wardrobe options for this kind of activity. Yup Janna's joke is offensive to some feamles. But I'm just tired of "OMG Sona you show too much cleavage, look how Zyra stands like a b**ch in a street corner that's so offensive I'll never play LoL" while saying that since Mantheon and Pentakill Olaf won't flex their toned physiques and that they show it for "intimidation" isn't sexist or offensive is using double standards and falling to the macho attitude you want to remove. How about Trynd's joke? I can easily argue that it is offensive since it reinforces the stereotype of gamers being loners who only have a girlfriend called Jill (Manuela for us in Latin America). But never mind, boys don't cry rite?

I'm sorry your friend can't play LoL alone since she will suffer harassment. However so do I sometimes because of my nick name. I even thought of changing it, since there are people constantly telling me I'm Mexican or BR (neither of which), of being a brown skin that should be picking vegetables, that I can't speak English (I beg your pardon?) and thus I suck at gaming and/or I'm a troll. But at the end I learned to grow thicker skin and try to change people attitude's with my behavior, asking them nicely to please stop harassing me, etc. When they don't listen, well there is a report option which is handy for these issues. I'm sure that in time we can weed out all of those racist and sexist ***holes from our community together, and this is why I love League of Legends.

I applaud Riot's compromise to a bigger diversity in female champs and hell yes I'm expecting a 65+ years old human witch that can kick ass solo top without having to be sexy (wink wink nod nod Ironstylus). But saying that once this witch goes live and we remove all the sexy stereotypes BOOM female players in LoL is naive at best.

TL; DR: Yes LoL has too many sexualized female champs. But saying that they are a main culprit for the lack of gaming girls is over simplifying the problem.


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Bekkal

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Auronn Kell:
Pinnacle of sexualization and body-marketing: Pr0n.

Female champions: mostly spot on in terms of body type. Thin waist, curves. T&A.
Male champions: also mostly spot on. Unrealistically muscled and/or wellbuilt, many shirtless or otherwise showing off excellent body despite every argument made against Bikini Armor applying here.

So Gragas and maybe a handful of others excluded, both genders of champions reflect what you find 90% of the time in straightlaced, high budgeted pornography. Both genders are present and regularly follow guidelines set down by the most sexualized of all media in existence. Both genders WATCH this media, despite what "common knowledge" dictates, because "common knowledge" is, as always, typically incorrect. There's a margin of difference between genders, but not as wide as many of you would like to believe, I'd guess.

Women champs look like pornstars, multiple thread outcry for "change".
Men champs look like pornstars, nothing, because we're used to being told we're not Alpha enough in our fantasy games and accepted that awhile ago. That's kind of been there at "gaming's" inception. You played things like DnD because you COULD be the 6ft tall, heavily muscled Alphatype that you probably weren't in real life. Women in LoL typically only get stripper bodies, and that sucks. Male bodychoices in LoL are basically The Governator or Fight Club Brad Pitt, but it's k, because we're not overly sexualized either.

Male "stripper" costumes don't exist often because typically, it only involves us/them being shirtless with a hat on. Not really much play to that. Stripper Cop Caitlyn might be a stripper, but at least she's distinguishable from the other strippers. Get five male stripper skins together, and really all you got to go on is skin color and which hat they're wearing. "Aw dammit...I died because I forgot I was shirtless guy with the red fireman's hat and not the shirtless guy with the yellow fireman's hat".



Oh look, someone gets it!


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Cry1

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Oh god not another one of these bleeding ******s threads. GET OVER IT. Most guys aren't going to be the adonis that many male champions are portrayed as, but they're not ****ing bleeding and crying. Stop being a little emo ***** and expecting everyone to feel so bad for you and toughen up


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AbiwonKenabi

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
xSuzu:
I once also made a post concerning the lack of name diversity amongst female champions. I mean seriously, virtually all of the names are made female through the addition of a vowel sound. Here is every female champion:

So in addition to the artwork, models, and whatnot, maybe you should work on renaming female champions.


I think that is more of a language thing. More feminine names tend to end in "--a" especially in romance languages like French or Spanish. This isn't always the case just the general rule, and I think there are enough examples of the opposite that's it not really an issue, as long as the names are different enough.


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Chamenas

Senior Member

10-08-2012

As I said previously. The only thing that will encourage more female gamers in truth is for more female gamers to step up and play games regardless of how the community treats them. It doesn't mean they can't highlight these issues, quite the contrary, they SHOULD highlight these issues, but then they should go back to playing the game and ignoring the jerks. Through time, people will begin to see how awful a lot of female players are being treated and say "this isn't right" and things will change.

What WON'T get people to change is making posts on forum boards saying "female players refuse to play because you're all jerks". That just makes players defensive and angsty.

I respect the female players I know who go into a game, don't hide that they're female (don't make it obvious either, aside from one who doesn't like being called a "dude" and will correct people), and simply play. Some jerk makes comments about her being female? She ignores it. These are the women that are pioneers, and the ones who will help reshape the gaming community. Because the women who do this will expose more and more of the rotten underbelly of gaming. Most gamers are not jerks and find such treatment disgusting. They'll report the trolls and stand up and say something after enough games have passed.


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Høt?høtGG

Member

10-08-2012

i am gonna say that again

First if i boy masturbate with the art painting on league of legends he is a weirdo who need to get a life

Second if i girl getting jealous from the art painting on league of legends she is stupid ugly insecure girl

So because that people are only the 5% of th population and even more less on league of legends community go away from the internet and go to the therapist!


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Drukyul

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
IronStylus:
The next champion you'll see that I worked on.. good god.. it's got me written all over it.


It's a parrot, isn't it?


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AbiwonKenabi

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Pepperkat:
Lulu is centuries old and is a sorceress and a support. :3

Technically Lulu is old, but she has the mentality of a child, so I don't think that's what this guy was looking for.


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CommanderSpace

Junior Member

10-08-2012

I wish all the girl champs were sexy. What's wrong with it? Its a game dude, stop trying to ruin stuff for everyone else. This is the perfect example of the vocal minority.