@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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Who is Sexy

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Senior Member

10-07-2012

+1 for nice thread


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Brosona

Member

10-07-2012

Still not sure why **** and ass are causing such an uproar. The assumption that they are all men care about is sexist. Yes, you'll go on about how they're all the same shape and pose in their splash arts and cherry pick examples to suit your needs but you also completely ignore the classy skins.

I don't care about T&A, personally, I'm more attracted to people having long hair. Hence why I play Ashe and Katarina. My favorite skins for them? High Command Katarina and Queen Ashe. Queen Ashe is very classy and regal looking while HC Kat looks like she's just slaughtered a bunch of people and is out to kill a lot more.

Stereotyping men makes you just as bad as those you are fighting against.


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Zetasphere

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
You're killing me with the numbers.. I'm an artist for god's sake..

So I won't be defensive, I'll be appropriately combative.. Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea how involved I've been in this conversation? A while. What have I done when I hear this feedback? I make a champion that incorporates all that feedback and I make it A REALLY BIG DEAL. Search "Embrace the Heresy" on google and see that hullabaloo. What do I do when I feel we've gone a bit astray? I talk to my producers, our art director, and my fellow concept artists. I take action. Not in a way that is imposing, rude, or invasive, but in a way that I hope challenges us to think a bit different and encourage our artists to keep crushing, to keep making amazing artwork.

Do I feel we are experiencing the same systemic issues with female champion representation as we have in the past? Absolutely. I find it problematic in that I always feel we can be more clever. We have not worked out all the kinks. We have champions and skins in the pipeline that still apply to particular pre-established trends. I'd like to change that and I'm actively working internally to seek balance where I can. What more would you like from me? What response would satiate you? Want me to do a seminar on this? Gladly.

Never have I EVER heard at Riot that we are motivated by *** to sell content. Do I think we on occasion reduce the solution to our challenges via the easy route of stripping down a character? Yes. As I said, I want us to be more clever. We can always remove, we can't always add.

True story: There's a champion in the pipeline which I saw a prime example to make into a strong, non-sexualized, and heroic female because it was fertile ground. It was initially supposed to be a guy. So what did I do? I made it. When are you going to see it? Probably not until next year. In the meantime you will indeed see some "sexy" here and there. That's that whole variety thing, and maybe some cases (which might irk players who want a bit more skin coverage) are situations that I couldn't come in on my grand steed of prudence to say, "hey! cover up that boob window!", because I HATE undermining an artists' confidence in their ability or creativity. I am not the lone voice on what is appealing. I should never dictate my views unless I take substantial issue with the content being created.

There are a thousand ways to solve a visual problem, it's a shame we get to choose only one. The artists deserve credit for the execution of their craft and honestly deserve better than to have someone like me harassing them every time someone shows a bit of skin in their design. We're going to make some champions who show skin. Not because of profit, not because of demand, not because we're all 14-year old boys who managed to get a hold of a video game company, but because in the right context it works. In the instances where it doesn't, my view is that holistically the champion is falling short. The solution is more lead time on development to really take advantage of how best we can make that champion and not have to resort to what's easy, which in my opinion is less clothing.

That said, there will always be Miss Fortunes and they will always be in your face with their giant.. ideas.. There will also always be Dianas who if you looked at even a portion of thier exposed neck they'd cut you down. As I've said, diversity and variety are key. We need more of it. Period.
How many times am I going to shake my fist at the brass at Riot to get them to give this man a raise? Parrot's been involved in this since before my time and the guy has come through. Just like I said waaaaaaaaaaay back earlier in the thread, trust in the design folks to do it right. They're pretty much the best thing going.


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LouisLeGros

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Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
Just out of curiosity IronStylus, could a female champion ever look like this?

If not, what would be some major issues? (I am going to assume readability.) If so, how do you think players would react?

I like this picture because it is so different from the expectations of "woman in armor".


Also, I found this blog post referring to Sejuani and (I am assuming?) Riot's feelings about female champions. Do you all still have this sentiment? (Plus it is a really good post that goes beyond feminism and more into why Sejuani and designs like her ultimately fail.)
I'm pretty sure Iron has that picture saved in a folder already from when I made an armored women thread to serve as a source of inspiration for future champions. I immediately recognized posting that specific picture in said thread.


... at least of having it in my own collection


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MrJimmie Rustler

Senior Member

10-07-2012

If so many people both male and female, are complaining about skimpy outfits over-sexualising female characters, then Riot should fix it asap.

Next patch:
Any character that is female, has to wear a Burka while out in public on the fields of justice.


Example: Soraka and Caitlyn duo bot will now appear less sexy
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...anistan_01.jpg

Problem solved.


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Shaella

Senior Member

10-07-2012

God you're smart!


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

10-07-2012
54 of 61 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenzoil View Post
I haven't read the whole thread, but I have read some of the stuff that Ironstylus has addressed in this thread. To me, what is being stated about character design is very interesting. And I like to see the thought process being made in the riot feedback.

I want to address specifically character designer about how they are pushing proportions over shapes and it would be helpful to go back to pushing the basic shapes: Triangles, Circles, and squares. If you go back to early female character their shapes were pushed immensely to tell the story of the character with their silhouette alone. As an example, I am going to compare MF to Zyra (Old good design vs New Bad design [shape wise]). MF is very well designed character and her shapes represents her personality. She is an energetic female that runs into action and displays her presence. In short, she is a very active female. The designers pushed an abundance of triangles onto her shape.
It's best to address this in a bullet point format, so the list is as follows:
-triangle hat
-triangle lip of her boots
-triangle boot point
-triangle cloth around her forearm
-triangle thigh (her knee is abnormally small)
-Her stomach is a triangle (wide hips, skinny ribs)
- All the pushed triangle shapes of her overall volume are pushing up into her face and out through her hat making a statement that she is outgoing person.
-To represent her sturdiness in the face of danger, her torso is squared and shock and aww are squarish cylinders.
MF is one of my favorite designed female champs. Also, she WAS well animated. I will address that when animation is a topic, till then I will stick with character DESIGN.

Now lets break down Zyra's personality and Design. Zyra is an old mythical creature that captured an unsuspecting victim and took over their body. Zyra is an introvert in nature because of her life as a plant, and she is a smart creature that plots out her actions and executes them. Her design makes her look extrovert, energetic and bland. It's going be hard to break down the shapes of this character because her design is muddy, so I will try to point out her overall shape:
-Square Stomach
-Square torso
-parallelogram thigh (they are kind triangle too, it's very confusing)
-parallelogram calves (they are kind triangle too, it's very confusing)(Also, the legs are too skinny for a character that has been "rooted" for most of it's life, If anything her legs should be much bigger then the rest of her body, not lankier)
-Squared bicep
-Triangle Forearm
- Roundish triangle thorns (a very bad decision on a sinister character)
-Triangle head (point downwards, a very strong decision about a character that is "rooted")
-Overall she is top heavy which is counter intuitive to her lore and her personality. I could be wrong, and that's a problem when it's not clear in the character design.

MF shows that the character designer made strong decisions about her shape and how the shape represents her personality. On the other hand, Zyra is a bad example of effective character design, it feels like strong decisions of her personality and shapes were note made, and it shows. I am sure you guys put equal amount of time into both. But it shows that the older champion design was asking all the right question, how can we convey her past and personality with shapes. And the new champions shows that the character designers were asking the wrong question, how could we make her more plant like? instead of how to tell the story of the character using shapes.

Also, stop making male character that are primarily V shaped torso.

Anyways, this is my two cents, and I hope it was clear. And, It's hard to write about the conceptual psychological property of shapes and how to correct character designs to reflect a stronger knowledge of the subject. On a personal note, I am currently delving deeper into my understanding of the topic myself.

TL;DR Please push the basic shapes of champions.
I have no overly analytic response. You nailed it. GG.


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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-07-2012

I'm going to bed. IronStylus, gypslord, Mr. Art Director, all the beautiful people who have been supportive, and all the civil people who respectfully disagree, thank you and good night.


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Kyryck

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaella View Post
Syndra is a total skank-bucket
No. YOU view her as a 'skank-bucket'. Others may view her as a dominant and confident female who chooses to accentuate her presence by dressing the way she does. In point of fact, I'd imagine that the wardrobe of every single champion is designed by the artists to reflect some aspect of their personality that they're trying to convey to the gaming audience. And I can declare with complete authority that at no point has the aspect of the champions personality that the artist is trying to convey "Hai guyz, I'm a total *****! Tee hee."

If you or anybody else sees champions that way, that's saying something about how you view them and about your own world view. Don't impose that viewpoint on other people and blankly assume that it is the one that all must share.

IronStylus has already stated emphatically that Riot has NEVER designed skins with the idea of selling ***. Given how he has been more than willing to engage in a painfullly drawn out conversation where often he's simply repeating the same mea-culpa over and over and over again about Riot needing to be better at variety, perhaps you should believe him. Or not. Ultimately this thread isn't going to change anybody's mind on this issue. Essentially what's going on here is a giant reach-around where the desired outcome of Riot being made aware of the issue has already taken place and now everybody gets to show their 'social awareness' or whathaveyou and argue with each other and go to sleep feeling oh so enlightened because they have the one true line on the 'truth of the matter'.


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Shaella

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyryck View Post
No. YOU view her as a 'skank-bucket'. Others may view her as a dominant and confident female who chooses to accentuate her presence by dressing the way she does. In point of fact, I'd imagine that the wardrobe of every single champion is designed by the artists to reflect some aspect of their personality that they're trying to convey to the gaming audience. And I can declare with complete authority that at no point has the aspect of the champions personality that the artist is trying to convey "Hai guyz, I'm a total *****! Tee hee."

If you or anybody else sees champions that way, that's saying something about how you view them and about your own world view. Don't impose that viewpoint on other people and blankly assume that it is the one that all must share.

IronStylus has already stated emphatically that Riot has NEVER designed skins with the idea of selling ***. Given how he has been more than willing to engage in a painfullly drawn out conversation where often he's simply repeating the same mea-culpa over and over and over again about Riot needing to be better at variety, perhaps you should believe him. Or not. Ultimately this thread isn't going to change anybody's mind on this issue. Essentially what's going on here is a giant reach-around where the desired outcome of Riot being made aware of the issue has already taken place and now everybody gets to show their 'social awareness' or whathaveyou and argue with each other and go to sleep feeling oh so enlightened because they have the one true line on the 'truth of the matter'.
she's a skank bucket
come at me bro, how mad are you right now